17-05-2003 07:01									#1
	VERY DISTURBING info on RON found...please READ Enter the AD-FREE zone

folks please post your comments on this...Im a bit disturbed by it because the whole point of advancing thru the ages is to build a more elite and superior technological military.....as well as civilization.


http://ron.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/...ct&f=1,855,0,10


please post your thoughts on this and what does BIG HUGE plan on doing to address this...I really would love to know

	17-05-2003 07:36									#2
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It's not a problem. Units from age 6 beat units from age 5. It may not be much of an advantage, but it's still there and still count's toward your victory. You NEVER see something like archers vs. choppers, so this kind of thing has no impact on the gameplay whatsoever.

It's a non-issue because these circumstances don't take place in a regular game, only in "tests."

	17-05-2003 08:51									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

It seems the realism freaks have arrived.

Um. There is a reason for this. Although it may seem odd along the lines of civilization purists, all the game would amount to if Knights couldn't injure tanks is a pure technology rush. Players wouldn't even bother with building a military, they'd simply jump up the tech tree as fast as possible. Problems? Just pump out a few of your uber units.

When some of these folks actually report back from multiplayer that this is a problem, I think then BHG will consider revising. Until then I don't see it as a problem even in the demo's single player.

In my experiences, realism does not necessarily mean the game is fun. Adding more does not make it more fun as a whole. If you want to make the game more realistic, you can mod it, that should be easy enough. But if anybody comes up to me and says the game isn't fun because an archer can take down a helicopter, I'm going to laugh my ass off at them.

	17-05-2003 09:06									#4
	Put an end to popups!

We'll double-check things to be sure, but I feel Bridger is largly correct. The sitautions that are being talked about are "on paper" situations that never actually come up in a real game. I'll be the first to post here when an archer shoots down one of my helis.

	17-05-2003 09:44									#5
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quote: Originally posted by bhg_paul I'll be the first to post here when an archer shoots down one of my helis.

Or when this guy does:

	17-05-2003 10:19									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Combined arms will crush any unit that stand in the way of your army. I usually have APCs, tanks, artillery or rocket artillery(depends on age) and ground troops, they had no problems taking out the computers old units. Also I always have bombers ready to rain down fire on them too.

	17-05-2003 10:33									#8
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really all you need is AI and a healthy economy and let the flood do its job well

	17-05-2003 19:02									#9
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These situations were all one v. one, correct? How many times is this actually going to be seen in RoN or in any other RTS? I would assume in the modern age you will have enough resources to build larger mixed armies. At that point these one v. one situations will never happen. As long as you make a mixture of units you will never fall into this problem.

	17-05-2003 23:00									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

I played my first ROn game yesterday, and built the Terra Cotta Army wonder. I have to say that its a game breaker.

You get a free slinger every minute or so, which can then be upgraded to fusiliers, then highlanders and then the black watch. The civ who gets it gets unlimited amount of ground troops, and will most definitly win.

	17-05-2003 23:15									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia I played my first ROn game yesterday, and built the Terra Cotta Army wonder. I have to say that its a game breaker. You get a free slinger every minute or so, which can then be upgraded to fusiliers, then highlanders and then the black watch. The civ who gets it gets unlimited amount of ground troops, and will most definitly win.

not really. i usually build it and let the troops mass like that, but i've still lost/

	18-05-2003 00:40									#12
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The problem isnt knights killing tanks, thats not ever really going to affect your game. The problem is that the individual unit AI is horrible.

The game is aware of combined arms...at least the mouseover text seems to be, but the units themselves do not play to their strengths at all. For example, if you have an army of mixed troop composition and send it towards an AI army, your calvary might charge head long into a row of pikemen, ignoring the archers right next to them. While your own heavy infantry will plod towards those same archers, meanwhile getting peppered to death.

This needs to be fixed.

olaf

	18-05-2003 01:38									#13
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the real game breaker, in my opinion, is the statue of liberty.

all my units get upgraded instantly, and for free, in the middle of battles? gaw?

	18-05-2003 02:21									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think the problem scenario identified here isn't knight against tank, it's hoplite against tank. The unit strengths do go up with each generation, but it's not dramatic. A hoplite (ancient age heavy infantry) attacks at 13 with 120 hit points, while an anti-tank missle (info age heavy infantry) attacks at 24 with 265 hit points. So in this case the unit line only roughly doubles in strength over the course of the entire game. Thus a hoplite would be about half as likely as an anti-tank missle to destroy a tank. I assume there must be some bonus multiplier for heavy infantry fighting against members of the heavy cavalry line, so hoplites would get the same bonus as anti-tank missles.

This certainly seems unrealistic, but I agree with others that it is unlikely to ever come up in a game. However it does lead to an interesting strategic possibility which I might try later. What would happen if you never upgrade your troops? You would save resources on unit upgrade costs and instead probably use them to pump out more units. If this strategy is effective, then there is a problem with the game. I'll post again if/when I get to try it.

	18-05-2003 02:32									#15
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX the real game breaker, in my opinion, is the statue of liberty. all my units get upgraded instantly, and for free, in the middle of battles? gaw?

You can't get it until modern(or was it industrial?) age, so it really only works for one or 2 age upgrades.

	18-05-2003 05:28									#16
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You guys are overlooking what happens when you mix your TCA with your SOL.

	18-05-2003 06:53									#17
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quote: Originally posted by bhg_paul You guys are overlooking what happens when you mix your TCA with your SOL.

well thats a given

	18-05-2003 06:53									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Bridger You can't get it until modern(or was it industrial?) age, so it really only works for one or 2 age upgrades.

play as egypt, get it an age early

	18-05-2003 09:00									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ok, I tried the test I referred to earlier, ie, never upgrading units. Bottom line, while it may actually be the case that a hoplite has a decent chance against a tank, you just can't do it in a real game. If the only thing he had on the battle field was tanks, then maybe it would work. But the hoplites were getting slaughtered by his upgraded heavy infantry and whatever else he had out there that wasn't cavalry. I started fighting sometime around gunpowder age, with an army of ancient era hoplites, bowmen, and cataphracts. He also had decent mixed forces, but somewhat upgraded (though not to gunpowder levels). And I was getting slaughtered.

Of course, rather than waste a perfectly good game, I quickly took the upgrades and kicked the computer's butt. And I had some real fun with helicopters, which I've never used before, so the game was worthwhile. In case anyone is wondering, the game was free for all, moderate difficulty level, arena map, me as the British and one random opponent which turned out to be Bantu.