18-05-2003 04:04									#1
	Would you like to build a Wonder Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes or No

	18-05-2003 04:07									#2
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We may be able to pre-build one in one of our upcomming cities. I think IronCity would be a good candidate for this. We don't need to decide which wonder to build yet, but just if we want to build one or pre-build one.

	18-05-2003 04:52									#3
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Thing with Iron City, it will need a higher Population than it would be able to have for a while. One of the closer cities would be better.

E_T

	18-05-2003 05:03									#4
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I think IronCity will put out 3 spt on creation it could get up 5 with another mined hill along with the Iron being mined. We could add a worker to it's pop to get things rolling if we choose too. I think the Pyramids would make an excellent choice.

	18-05-2003 05:04									#5
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Hmmm my thoughts on the wonders which come up in the semi-near future:

Great wall: might be worth considering if we are sure we will be attacked. Our mercs behind double defense city walls would be near unbeatable until the late middle ages. Though obviously it'd only help us in a defensive war.

Pyramids: Now that we've built granaries, I dont think this would help us much in the long run.

Great Library: Not worth much in multiplayer from what ive been told.

Great Lighthouse: Could potentially be useful. Not essential in our situation though. Still it just *might* allow us to make contact with the rest of the civs first. Then again it *might* prove nearly worthless. I wouldn't shoot for it, but if we get into a wonder race for another wonder, and lose, this might make a decent consolation prize.

Oracle: No opinion, I never build these first in my games.

Art of War: It's still a ways off, but we *might* be able to start pre-building for it now. I think this would prove vastly useful to us in this game. If someone does the math and it works out that we can get feudalism before a palace finishes, then this might be worth seriously considering.

Leonardo's: Much less likely we'll get invention soon enough, and less useful IMO that the art of war.

Im pretty sure all the other wonders are too far out for consideration at the moment.

So basically, I think if we can spare the production then going for the great wall, the lighthouse, or the art of war are probally worth doing. The art of war would be the obvious best choice, though the great wall would be a serious help to us if attacked (and probally be enough of a detterent to keep us from being attacked for that matter)

	18-05-2003 07:12									#6
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hi ,

yes , we need wonders

where is the banana or kiwi option , ......?

have a nice wonderfull day

	18-05-2003 07:42									#7
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I would like to build a Wonder, but it's just not viable at this time. Therefore I voted "no".


Dominae

	18-05-2003 08:17									#8
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Agree with Dominae; I started that thread more as a genuine "just wondering what people thought" than an attempt at any real drive towards a wonder. Pyramids aren't that useful to us; the wall is for Civs that don't already have 3 defense, the Lighthouse is pointless since we have lots of coast in every direction to scoot around. I think prebuilding for the Art of War would be unwise at this time, and unless we go after that tech with a vengence- no one will trade Feudalism until it has been built, I guarentee you that.

	18-05-2003 08:41									#9
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The wall would be good, just to denign our closest neighbors from having it. If they want to get really frisky, they would be smart to have an extra defence to keep our ultimate counter-offensive away from them.

I like to sometimes have HG, as that helps to keep may people happier and lets me get more WLKD's during the Middle Ages, when I'm building some large items, like banks, etc.

E_T

	18-05-2003 10:51									#10
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Iron City/Tripolitania would be the only good location to start a wonder, but I'm not particularly fond of pulling shields away from other more pressing causes...

No.

	18-05-2003 14:42									#11
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We have at least 3 other civs on our large continent that will need to be eliminated.

Sun Tzu would be the only wonder I would like.

Pyramids & then the Great Wall would be possibilities.

	18-05-2003 15:52									#12
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hi ,

, we could take an other way with this , ....

let them build all the wonders and go after them

anyway , why not give it a try , ..... you never know , sometimes other teams leave wonders alone , ......

have a nice day

	18-05-2003 17:57									#13
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I don't think we can afford a wonder either (I haven't actually voted yet for that reason).

quote: the wall is for Civs that don't already have 3 defense

I thought the great wall doubled the effects of all city walls. City walls are normally +50% defense (makes our mercs 4.5), with the great wall, wouldn't that be +100% or (6 defense)? If so wouldn't that make our mercs behind walls an effective defense all the way up to when the GW expires with metallurgy (muskets behind normal walls are only 6....) To me thats a fairly signicant boost given we feel our immediate neihbor probally has hostile intent. I mean CDG would have to be nuts to try to immortal rush against that. Not to mention the GW is one of the cheapest wonders (20 in the editor, I believe that means 200 shields, but I could be wrong, but in any case the palace is set to 10, so it costs the same as 2 palaces). However if iron city is only putting out 3 spt, then thats still 67 turns till completion, 40 if we get that up to 5 spt. By that time, without the extra production to produce mercs we could be toast anyways

	18-05-2003 18:02									#14
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You're correct about the effects of the wall. I was dismissive of it in this case, because I think that CDG will be going away during the era of Chivalry, and they're the only civ we really need worry about attacking us. I suppose the Wall might not be a terrible build, but when our defense is already intimidating, I'd rather not waste 40 turns on something that will go obselete shortly after our Mercs do the same thing.

	18-05-2003 18:09									#15
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Here's just a general cost analysis of our options (Im assuming no accelerated production, I don't really know if we are using it or not since Ive not asked for the save file):

Mercs: 30 shields, 10 turns @3spt, 6 turns @5spt
Swordsman: 30 shields, same as merc

Great Wall: 200 shields, 67 turns @3spt, 40 @5spt, 6.6 mercs
Pyramids: 400 shields, 134@3, 80@5, 13.3 mercs
Gardens: 300 shields, 100@3, 60@5, 10 mercs
Colossus: 200 shields, 67@3, 80@5, 6.6 mercs
Lighthouse: 300 shields, 100@3, 60@5, 10 mercs
Library: 400 shields, 134@3, 80@5, 13.3 mercs
Oracle: 300 shields, 100@3, 80@5, 10 mercs
Art of War: 600 shields, 200@3, 120@5, 20 mercs
Sistine: 600 shields, 200@3, 120@5, 20 mercs
Leonardos: 600 shields, 200@3, 120@5, 20 mercs
Everything past that is probally too early to even consider yet.

I would assume accelerated production halves the costs for everything, but Im not 100% sure on that. If we are using it of course.

Please correct me if im wrong on how something works btw

	18-05-2003 18:11									#16
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quote: something that will go obselete shortly after our Mercs do the same thing.

Our mercs will go obsolete about the time of calvary, which in my single player games at least, everything seems obsolete but a strong offense At least until the era change and rifleman :P

	18-05-2003 20:00									#17
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I don't think wonders are worth it, only a few of them like the GL. But other civs will probably bouild it before we can and then we'll have to settle on the GW, which sucks...

	18-05-2003 21:29									#18
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We must concentrate on making new cities and building up our military for a while. No time for Wonders, I'm afraid!

	19-05-2003 04:55									#19
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A good thread. We need these periodically.

As stated, we are not ready for a Wonder at present and it would only harm the direction we are pushing in. We are founding more cities quickly thanks to Dom's grain legacy and we are getting together a force in case of emergencies. Once our efforts have given us some reassurance and we have covered more territory, a Wonder may be an option. Until then it would just slow us down and make us a target, if we aren't already targetted.

	19-05-2003 17:02									#20
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hi ,

either we build a city like iron city and let it grow and pile up for a wonder or we rush towards cavalry and take the wonders others have build , .....

have a nice day