19-05-2003 06:40									#1
	The ABSOLUTLEY (un)OFFICIAL "What the hell REALLY happaned in the Matrix"thread Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Warning-This threads purpose is ENTIRLEY to discuss what happaned in the new matrix movie-as it is confusing-the entire thread is ment to be spoilers-so dont read this thread if you havent seen the movie.
























Okay, what the hell is REALLY going on.... there are COUNTLESS inconsistencies(I was going to start posting em but too many for me to keep track as I saw the movie.... I wish I had it on DVD now or something with a notepad to take notes LOL) and it just dosent seem to "work"....

What is ACTUALLY happening-were there previous zions, was this all replayed before, is the oracle a "good" guy or a bad, was the "architect" saying the truth? Did Neo stop those machines near the end, or did that ship EMP them, was zion really destroyed(this time), did none of this really happaned and will be revealed to be a dream? What if the entire movie, even when they are "out" of the matrix, they are still really IN it-for the entire first 2 movies(my theory).


Thoughts?










Also HOW THE HELL IS NEO CLARVOYANT???? This is the biggest problem in the movie......if he is "out" of the matrix he cant possible be clairvoyant because you cant REALLY predict events(dune idea... perfect knowledge of the past he perfect pradictability(universe is a machine)) but that is ONLY possible inside the matrix, so how did he have vision while outside it?

	19-05-2003 06:47									#2
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Well, according to the architect, at least some form of this scenario has played out six times (The One coming to the architect, and Zion being destroyed, that is). The Oracle's loyalties are, I believe, still questionable, but, having seen the preview after the credits, I believe she is on the side of the humans.

I believe that Neo did, in fact, stop the sentinels. How is subject to question.

I don't think this will turn out to be a dream, as that would be a horrible plot move. And Neo's clairvoyance is, I think, explainable through the fact that his mind has been connected to the Matrix, and he can, therefore, predict events that will occur there, even when outside the Matrix.

	19-05-2003 07:03									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Kirnwaffen Well, according to the architect, at least some form of this scenario has played out six times (The One coming to the architect, and Zion being destroyed, that is). The Oracle's loyalties are, I believe, still questionable, but, having seen the preview after the credits, I believe she is on the side of the humans. I believe that Neo did, in fact, stop the sentinels. How is subject to question. I don't think this will turn out to be a dream, as that would be a horrible plot move. And Neo's clairvoyance is, I think, explainable through the fact that his mind has been connected to the Matrix, and he can, therefore, predict events that will occur there, even when outside the Matrix.

Unless you want to say its magic, the only way to be clarvoyant is with perfect (or near perfect-for a % of likeliness of events) knowledge of the past-with that you can extrapolate future events.

Its safe to assume that the matrix has quantum computing(storing information on the variance electron shells of atoms) which is how it has seemingly limitless processing power-so how could Neo do it outside the matrix? A human brain cant hold that kinda info.... heck-if the machines can be clarvoyant, why dont they just extrapolate the best possible future?

	19-05-2003 07:07									#4
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He could if there are multiple layers of matricies.

However, the problem with this idea is that each additional Matrix-within-a-matrix is gonna cause the power requirements to run it to go up exponetially.

	19-05-2003 08:10									#5
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that french accented ***** guy might not be a *****. He might have been the "previous one" and locked the keymaker because of what he did on previous matrix.

Not much evidence, but its just a hunch.

	19-05-2003 08:19									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Kirnwaffen The Oracle's loyalties are, I believe, still questionable, but, having seen the preview after the credits, I believe she is on the side of the humans.

there is a preview after the credits?

	19-05-2003 08:23									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse there is a preview after the credits?

That suprised me as well. I'm going to have to see the movie again to see the preview now.

	19-05-2003 08:25									#8
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luckily, we had a geek among our group sitting us down as soon as we were about to leave.

Trailer was NOT worth waiting 3 minutes thru the credit.

	19-05-2003 08:28									#9
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Personally, I hope that the third movie is nothing but two hours of dancing.

	19-05-2003 08:32									#10
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Perv.

	19-05-2003 08:34									#11
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Personally, I hope that the third movie is nothing but two hours of dancing.

Real Cancun hits theathers sometime this summer.

	19-05-2003 08:34									#12
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Bah. Girls Gone Wild hit video years ago.

	19-05-2003 08:34									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Zero Real Cancun hits theathers sometime this summer.

It's been out for a few weeks.

	19-05-2003 08:39									#14
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Bah. Girls Gone Wild hit video years ago.

which one? doggy style or sexy sorority?

	19-05-2003 08:41									#15
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I doubt there's a difference.

	19-05-2003 08:47									#16
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doggy style is the one where snoop dogg films all the actions.

Dont you watch comedy central (they only advertise girl gone wild for every other commerical.. )

	19-05-2003 08:48									#17
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until the very end of the movie when neo disabled the squids there was no evidence that there was a secondary matrix, as soon as neo took out the sentinals my first reaction was there is a secondary matrix, and while it seems to be the most logical conclusion it isn't the only one i can think of two others

on another note zion hasn't been destroyed yet, just some of the ships waiting outside of zion to counterattack were disabled
1) talking to the architect allowed neo to control the machines outside of the matrix and neo simply acticated a self destruct/kill switch on the squiddies

2) the door neo walked out led him to a secondary matrix, and it was a trick to save the matrix, and much of what neo was told was a lie

	19-05-2003 09:04									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Zero luckily, we had a geek among our group sitting us down as soon as we were about to leave. Trailer was NOT worth waiting 3 minutes thru the credit.

It is if you are planning to make out with a very attractive girl during those three minutes.

	19-05-2003 09:28									#19
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Back on Topic...

My thoughts, interpretations, and guesses.

*** SPOILERS ***

If we assume the Architect was not lying...
Then Neo represents an anomaly that was not quantified in the original program. If he is integrated into the system, it can be perfected and the anomaly will dissappear, meaning infinite system stability. If he remains outside the system, it doomed, and so are the inhabitants of Zion.

The Oracle is not clairvoyant - she (by fluke, according to the Architect) designed the Matrix program, and so she knows exactly how to interpret every element, and know what the results will be with perfect accuracy (so far).

When Neo "destroyed" Agent Smith in the first movie, it had two unexpected effects.

First, the Smith sub-program was not deleted, but corrupted or altered. Rather than assign itself (himself) for deletion, it hid, and eventually learned it had become something new. The Smith program now has an element of the anomaly in it, picked up from Neo. The anomaly allows the Smith to overwrite any other sub-programs with a copy of itself, regardless of their source (Matrix sub-programs or human hacks). Interestingly, when a human hack is overwritten, it is carried back to the real person. Whether it serves as a complete brain overwrite or suppression we don't yet know.

Second, Neo now has an element of the Matrix programming in him, which triggered the dreams. Just like the Oracle, the dreams are not clairvoyant - they are the programmed outcomes of the current situation.

Now some of you are thinking, "How can the dreams include Trinity, who is not part of the Matrix? And how can the Oracle know Neo's "fate", who is also not part of the Matrix? Okay, hold onto your philosophical hats, here we go...

Consider the Matrix as Matrix-I. There is a Matrix-II.

Matrix-I: The one we know and love, that we were introduced to in the first movie.

Matrix-II: Outside of the Matrix-I, in what we thought was RL, but is in fact another Matrix system. This means Zion, all the humans (unplugged and original), and the sentinels are a part of the Matrix-II.

This explains:
1) Why the Oracle can predict "fate" for all the unplugged humans.
2) Why Neo is able to dream about Trinity. (If you buy my theory about the mutual code-switch.)
3) Why Neo is able to deactivate the Sentinels at the end of the movie.

Further, if you're following my train of thought, you will have realized that the Oracle is not a program. The only way that she could pull of the "clairvoyancy" for Matrix-II characters is if she programmed it as well - she must exist up another plane of reality. This also helps explain the Architects puzzlement with her. He doesn't know how she came up with the Matrix that is 99.5% perfect - he can't explain it, and he couldn't do it himself (he is a Matrix-II program). He also doesn't understand where her alligience lies - because she is playing both sides, so to speak.

Maybe the Oracle is just some curious AI that wants to understand human emotions (love, loyalty), and has constructed this grand box-within-a-box experiment to see what the limits are of each, using a single test subject (Neo).

To any struggling with the Matrix within a Matrix concept, recall any of the number of Star Trek episodes which involved the question, "Are we still on the Holodeck?". (Holodeck within a holodeck)

	19-05-2003 09:33									#20
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quote: Originally posted by dejon Consider the Matrix as Matrix-I. There is a Matrix-II.

Doesn't that up the power requirements required for these Matrices by an exponential degree.

	19-05-2003 09:48									#21
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Doesn't that up the power requirements required for these Matrices by an exponential degree.

1) Power requirements are definitely in the category of "something writers and directors could give a damn about".

2a) We have never been told what the power requirements of the Matrix are, so we have no idea if it is feasible or not, or if a second one would be.

2b) The fields and fields of human batteries being grown and the resulting power towers is not necessarily to power the Matrix, but to power whatever the AIs wish - starships to distant systems for all we know.

2c) The fields and fields of human batteries being grown and the resulting power towers is a story element of the Matrix-II - fiction. The whole thing could be a virtual reality experiment run in a time frame not far from now.

	19-05-2003 10:59									#22
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i know this is going to sound really dumb...but I honestly must have blinked or something...i heard everyone "oooh ahhh" at this point and I must have completely missed it.

At the end of the movie when they say someone else survived, and they pan over to the other table with someone laying on it...who is it and what is the signifigance? Thanks!

	19-05-2003 11:01									#23
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quote: Originally posted by orange At the end of the movie when they say someone else survived, and they pan over to the other table with someone laying on it...who is it and what is the signifigance? Thanks!

That's the human Smith took over early in the movie.

	19-05-2003 11:04									#24
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OK THEN!! That's what I figured, but I wasn't entirely sure. I thought that was a stretch, and I didn't want to ask right then and there and seem completely stupid Thanks DD!

	19-05-2003 11:05									#25
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If the outer matrix theory were to hold, that explains why Smith could operate within the outer matrix, just as Neo has done at least once.

But why was Neo exhausted by doing his thing against the squids in the outer matrix?

	19-05-2003 11:18									#26
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Can someone tell me what the trailer at the end of the credits revealed?

	19-05-2003 11:27									#27
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Nothing that I can remember.

	19-05-2003 12:16									#28
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That NEO was fighting the Smiths...

	19-05-2003 12:51									#29
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Can someone tell me what the trailer at the end of the credits revealed?

Not much except that there will likely be a rainy final showdown between Smith and Neo for "control" of the Matrix.

	19-05-2003 13:02									#30
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from the other thread:

Okay, this is how i see it after the second time watching it.

There is no matrix within a matrix. This is blatantly obvious. The only way they could make the matrix work, according to the architect, was to give humans the choice of whether or not to accept it, atleast on the most fundamental level. Zion is real, and filled with real people that are not plugged in to a matrix. It is necessary. The people who do not accept the matrix must be taken out to avoid the snowball effect. The matrix was designed to allow this, thus the ability to get in/out of the matrix. Once zion grew too large, it must be irradicated, and replanted. This goes back to what agent smith said in the first one about humans infecting an area and over running it.

The function of the one is to basically reboot the system, or atleast do a "system restore." This keeps the matrix in the desired time frame. "The matrix is older than you believe." They cannot allow humans to reach the point where they develop AI inside the matrix, as this could be catostrophic.

Now, on to specific characters.

The architect: He was not deceiving. I believe him to be incapable of it. His fundamental guiding principles are rooted in perfection, and perfection completely governs his thought process. He is exacting, and this leaves no room for the ability to lie. Things are as he said because a) he cannot lie, b) he has no reason to.

The oracle: She hinted at where she fell. She said that humans and machines needed each other. Her sole goal is to perpetuate the cycle of "reloading" by guiding the one to the source, and thereby restarting the matrix, and allowing humans and machines to coexist. She is neither for or against Neo, and as her programming, though intuitive, is no less rooted in logic.

The agents: I think they are victims of partial revelation. Just like a computer system will not give complete access to programs running inside of it, the agents operate on the information they are given. They serve the function of identifying the one, and that function alone. They probably are unaware that there have been 5 previous "ones."

Agent smithin the matrix) Agent smith is now free from the system. He said he gained something from neo, and I think we were given some foreshadowing on this as well. In the first movie, when smith was interogating morpheus, he said humans were viruses, reproducing until they overwhelm an ecosystem. What else is the matrix but an ecosystem of programs?

smith gained the virul trait, and choice from neo. This gave him power, and as the oracle said, he wanted what all men with power want, more power. He truly thinks of himself as a diety in the matrix. One quote went man:"oh god" smith:"Smith will suffice."

He is trying to take over.

Smith outside the matrix: He has infected a freed human with his "virus." The thing i think is most important here is that the title of the movie suggests repeated action. "Reloaded." As the architect suggests, this is just one more time around. This time, however, things are going differently than they ever have before. An "agent" has made it to the real world, Neo expresses choice, possibly forsaking humanity. As for smith being in the "real world" I believe this gives Neo a tie to the machines. In "destroying" Smith, Smith gained from neo, but as the merovingian said, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Neo also gained from smith. And with smith in the "real" neo, who can control things in the matrix, is a part of something wholy of the matrix in the real world, thus his sudden connection to the machines.

The most perturbing thing about the movie to me is that this is going to end up being another one of those love conquers all things, like harry potter. I think so many people dislike this movie, as MRT said, because they don't understand what is going on. There is a lot more happening on a lot more levels. In the first matrix, they basically came out and stated everything truly philosophical in the movie. in reloaded, you must truly read into the movie, and pay attention to the finer points.

With all of this said, I'm sure that even after the seconjd time, there is a lot i missed. The rewatchability factor on this one is huge, because there is always more to catch.