19-05-2003 18:13									#1
	The other side of the mondialization Inflate your Upload Space

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3027079.stm

What can we tell to these poor guys when they say : You told us not to raise tariff barreers, and you subsidize your agriculture ?

	19-05-2003 18:17									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well its a fantastic reason to do away with agricultural subsidies.

	19-05-2003 18:20									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Of course it won't happen. In the US subsidies are used to buy votes and in the EU they are run by the Mafia and the French.

	19-05-2003 18:22									#4
	Re: The other side of the mondialization Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT What can we tell to these poor guys

The same thing that we have said for centuries : STFU we are stronger.

However, I have a question : what is the direct impact of subsidies on the world prices ?

	19-05-2003 18:25									#5
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It's just another piece of evidence that the entire global trade system needs to be rethought and reorganised. The developed world must drop their subsidies and tariffs so the developing world has access to our large and import hungry markets. Every 1% rise in Africa's level of trade can take 40 million people out of crushing poverty.

Debt relief must continue so debts incurred under totalitarian regimes no longer crush democratic nations.

Trade must be fair as well as free, so people are actually paid wages they can live on and use to invest in their futures instead of just barely making ends meet.

	19-05-2003 18:28									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Drop the subsidies, I for one do not like the idea of paying for a UK farmers new Land rover or for a Frenchman to clog up Paris with his tractor when instead I can be paying less in Tax and at the same time giving the poorer nations a chance to develop.

	19-05-2003 18:28									#7
	Re: Re: The other side of the mondialization Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The same thing that we have said for centuries : STFU we are stronger. However, I have a question : what is the direct impact of subsidies on the world prices ?

Subsidies make possible for an uncompetitive producer to remain on the market, therefore increasing the offer and consequently driving the prices lower ... until they give up (or the subsidies are increased).

	19-05-2003 18:30									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

we should just deport africans to the UK so that Bods will be in his own personal hell

	19-05-2003 18:32									#9
	Re: Re: The other side of the mondialization Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The same thing that we have said for centuries : STFU we are stronger. However, I have a question : what is the direct impact of subsidies on the world prices ?

Subsidies result in the developed world dumping their produce on the world market at below market rates. Local farmers can't compete with such low prices and so are driven out of business. Problem is, these countries don't have the manufacturing or service industries to soak up the labour. Economic chaos soon follows.

Example: Europe is the most expensive place on the planet to produce sugar (from sugarbeets). However, European sugar is cheaper than locally produces sugar because it's so heavily subsidised. We EU consumers get double screwed because of the taxes we pay to support the CAP and then the prices we pay because of the minimum sale value that's part of the CAP. It would be cheaper to import sugar except agricultural tariffs prevent that.

So instead of having cheap sugar that's providing an income to a developing world farmer and his family, we have expensive sugar and the third world gets dumped on (pun intentional).

Make Trade Free and Fair!

	19-05-2003 18:33									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

He's already in Wales.

	19-05-2003 18:33									#11
	Support Apolyton

I second MRT's suggestion

Davout :
Maybe there could be an arrangement that doesn't destroy European agriculture (and peasants). Something along the line of helping only family farms or something, since they have little impact on worldwide production, unlike the massive agro complexes (which still get subsidies )

	19-05-2003 18:35									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ironicaly most people in europe who say they want fair trade would not want to stop giving the French farmers their handouts

	19-05-2003 18:42									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Most people in Europe? I think only the French farmers would be against that.

	19-05-2003 18:46									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

Most people who run europe

	19-05-2003 18:48									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

Well... the French are certainly one of the two most influential EU countries and their farmers do routinely hold their government hostage but I think if everyone else could work out a way to **** them over they would do it.

	19-05-2003 18:48									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

Someone once thought of something shatteringly insightful:

Why not take the mass amounts of sugar produced under CAP and use it to produce biofuel? Kills so many birds with one stone. We reduce our needs of petrol imports, stop dumping on the third world, and get cheaper sugar on our tables.

*sigh* it's so insightful that no one will ever actually follow it through.

New Zealand does perfectly fine without agricultural subsidies. Farmers have just taken to alternative ways of making money. They raise exotic meats or high quality organic produce that fetches better prices. They take care of their surroundings and preserve the natural environment. Lordy, they run B&B's to urban people visiting the countryside.

Farmers aren't dumb people, they're just so heavily subsidised they don't have to think.

	19-05-2003 18:50									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The mafia like their olive oil racket as well. As they own the Italian politicains that is another area that would be difficult to reform.

	19-05-2003 18:51									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

i want to visit new zealand one day. lord of the rings has done wonders for new zealand tourism i bet.

	19-05-2003 18:51									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I went last year, it is amazing, well worth a visit.

	19-05-2003 19:02									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I second MRT's suggestion Davout : Maybe there could be an arrangement that doesn't destroy European agriculture (and peasants). Something along the line of helping only family farms or something, since they have little impact on worldwide production, unlike the massive agro complexes (which still get subsidies )

When subsidies are necessary (it could happen to give the time to adapt for instance) subsidies should be reduced, year after year until they disappear. The time limit would induce a great motivation. The most astute farmers know quite well here that the Euro subsidies will not last; either they quit or switch to produces not subsidized at all, but profitable.