21-05-2003 21:42									#61
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panag, Bush has called for Abbas to do everything in his power to stop the violence.

Yet Arafat is still there.

Until Abbas or somebody on their side removes him, not only from the PA, but from the PLO, there can be no peace. You cannot have meaningful negotiations with any government that has Arafat in charge. In fact, his mere presence allows him to control and finance terrorists even if he didn't have any power as president of the PA.

The concept that one could appoint a PM who would negotiate for peace cannot work so long as Arafat has the power to continue to wage war regardless of what Abbas agrees to.

As you said, panag, there is sheer lunacy here.

An important first step to peace is to remove the terrorists and warmongers.

The key to everything is convince Bush that Arafat has to go.

	22-05-2003 01:05									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ned panag, Bush has called for Abbas to do everything in his power to stop the violence. Yet Arafat is still there. Until Abbas or somebody on their side removes him, not only from the PA, but from the PLO, there can be no peace. You cannot have meaningful negotiations with any government that has Arafat in charge. In fact, his mere presence allows him to control and finance terrorists even if he didn't have any power as president of the PA. The concept that one could appoint a PM who would negotiate for peace cannot work so long as Arafat has the power to continue to wage war regardless of what Abbas agrees to. As you said, panag, there is sheer lunacy here. An important first step to peace is to remove the terrorists and warmongers. The key to everything is convince Bush that Arafat has to go.

hi ,

yes but when we go after someone the world is against us , .....

we cant "disincintivate" people who kill others , ...

and as long as brussels keeps supporting terrorist , ......

but here lays an other problem , we are just to darn good , we are to forgiving , .....

have a nice day

	22-05-2003 02:20									#63
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panag, the world does not revolve around Paris or Brussels. It revolves around Washington. There is only one person in the world whose opinion really counts, and that is the president of the United States. Convince him that Arafat must go and he is gone.

As to why Israel continues to allow Arafat and the leader of Hamas to remain in power, well I think it has more to do with the president of the United States than anything else. However, I could be wrong here. Sharon has stood up to Bush before. He might be willing to do so again.

	22-05-2003 02:45									#64
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Come one, Ned, Sharon will never remove Arafat - who would he blame if he did?

Even after they forced a new prime minister on the palestinians Sharon is still busy blaming Arafat for everything that happens.

Take the veil of your eyes, Ned. This is not about Arafat. This is about an oppressed people who won't knuckle under, no matter what Sharon does to them. Give them a fair deal if you want change.

	22-05-2003 02:53									#65
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CyberGnu, I really think that Bush should demand that the PA arrest and try Arafat for war crimes. If they fail to do so, I think Israel ought to do it. It is amazing the tolerance every president, including Bush, have given that man.

	22-05-2003 03:42									#66
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For what, exactly?

You know he has a pardon for everything done before 1990, right? Signed by both Israel and the US as part of the original Oslo agreement.

but if you think he should be tried for warcrimes commited after 1990, I would suggest this:

1) Try Sharon as well, and in a real court this time.
2) Make Israel sign a binding agreement that regardless of the outcome, they will end the occupation. If he is found guilty he will be put in arrest, if he is innocent of the charges it is clear that Israel has used him as a scapegoat.

	22-05-2003 03:46									#67
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quote: It is amazing the tolerance every president, including Bush, have given that man.

You mean because even Bush won't buy Sharons unsubstantiated accusations hook, line and sinker?

My friend, you are easy to amaze...

	22-05-2003 05:20									#68
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CyberGnu, I suggest a trial because there cannot be a conviction unless there is evidence proving the violations beyond a reasonable doubt. In other words, this would really smoke Sharon out if he were exaggerating what they have on Arafat.

This is why, frankly, I am slightly suspicious that Sharon does ot offer Abbas the opportunity to review the evidence coupled with a demand for an arrest.

	22-05-2003 05:21									#69
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I think Sharon ought to offer the US the same evidence. If he does not, I cannot blame Bush for not calling for Arafat's arrest.

	22-05-2003 05:33									#70
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Well, that is pretty much what I meant. Arafat is used solely as Sharons scapegoat, and the really tragic part is that there are so many people ready to accept it...


And we can only hope that at least a few people wake up ever time the old excuse is used... I have no hopes that this latest roadmap will lead to anything, I doubt Bush has the moral strength to stand up for something that is right for once...

But maybe next time around we finally get a political climate in the US where pushing Israel against the wall is finally viable, and only then will we see peace.

	22-05-2003 06:25									#71
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Well, that is pretty much what I meant. Arafat is used solely as Sharons scapegoat, and the really tragic part is that there are so many people ready to accept it... And we can only hope that at least a few people wake up ever time the old excuse is used... I have no hopes that this latest roadmap will lead to anything, I doubt Bush has the moral strength to stand up for something that is right for once... But maybe next time around we finally get a political climate in the US where pushing Israel against the wall is finally viable, and only then will we see peace.

I think, though, that Sharon is right that they have to address the hard issues first, like RoR. The Roadmap looks exactly like Oslo II - deferring he hard issues until later. This almost guarantees a return to terrorism and a war between Palestine and Israel as the two sides face off once again over the hard issues.

	22-05-2003 07:20									#72
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I agree with you, but I'm not sure if that means agreeing with Sharon. It didn't seem like he was interested in negotiating it, but insisted that the denial of the RoR had to be included in the roadmap.

It's also been suggested that the solution for RoR etc would essentially be up to Bush, or whoever is in the White House 2005. If Bush forces Sharon to implement the roadmap, he would have gained quite a bit of respect in the palestinian camp, and would have a much better bargaining position than any of the partners have know. If he actually manages to gain a reputation as a fair broker (well, if the "quartet" does), the palestinians might accept a solution they wouldn;t accept in direct negotiations with Sharon.

But that is ONLY possible if Bush shows some moral strength... And right now, his moral capital is absolutely zero.

	22-05-2003 17:50									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ned panag, the world does not revolve around Paris or Brussels. It revolves around Washington. There is only one person in the world whose opinion really counts, and that is the president of the United States. Convince him that Arafat must go and he is gone. As to why Israel continues to allow Arafat and the leader of Hamas to remain in power, well I think it has more to do with the president of the United States than anything else. However, I could be wrong here. Sharon has stood up to Bush before. He might be willing to do so again.

hi ,

the dif between bcl or washington is simple , the EU funds yasser and his pieces of worthless terrorists , .....

why we continue ; look at the Jewish and Israeli people as a whole , we are to good , when you beat on our left cheek we over our right , ....

like the new road map , well ones again a plan is made , ones again people who have never set foot in our country are telling us what to do , .....

as for Sharon , he would do it , but we are a democrazy and that is what ties our hands , .......

have a nice day

	22-05-2003 17:54									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think Sharon ought to offer the US the same evidence. If he does not, I cannot blame Bush for not calling for Arafat's arrest.

hi ,

evidence , .....

look at www.idf.il to start , ofetn the documents with sigs are there , ......

Siro can probably show you more also , .....

the amount is to large to post here on my side , .... the owners would not be to happy about it , ......

just visit the site of the Israeli embassy in Paris , ....

loads of evindece there , ..... want facts , we got like at least a dozen booklets or so full of them , ......

what language(s) do you speak

call the nearest Israeli embassy and ask them to send you info on the conflict , or better yet , go there with an empty large bag , ....

have a nice day