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C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:28
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BBC article
quote:
Blair condemns EU 'scaremongering'
Tony Blair is to meet Valery Giscard d'Estaing for talks about the new European constitution amid growing calls for a referendum on the issue.
Ahead of the meeting, the prime minister's spokesman condemned "hype and scaremongering" from Eurosceptics who fear that the constitution will lead to the loss of more British sovereignty.
But Conservative leader Iain Duncan Smith said the draft constitution proposed "deep and dangerous changes" to how British people were government adding a referendum was crucial.
He told the British-Swiss Chamber of Commerce in London: "We believe that the people of Britain should have the opportunity to vote on any proposed European Constitution."
Labour MP Frank Field is to table a bill calling for a referendum, arguing that British sovereignty would be ended if the constitution were adopted.
A spokesman for Mr Blair said: "Amidst all the hype of recent days it is easy to lose sight of where the EU is going.
"As Valery Giscard d'Estaing said this is not part of a plot to establish a European superstate but to complete a free Europe."
On areas of tax and foreign affairs Britain would decide its own policy but it made sense to pool efforts when came to issues like crime and the environment, he said.
No tyranny?
Foreign Secretary Jack Straw also played down the implications of the proposal which he said was "not about the sacrifice of national civilisations, nor about the imposition of central control".
He argued that the UK would not accept any change that threatened British interests and he pointed out that Mr Ancram had been opposed to a referendum on the Maastricht treaty.
"The reality is more prosaic. This is about making an enlarged European Union more efficient and open.
"It is absurd to suggest, as some in Britain and elsewhere do, that the EU 25 will be a tyranny when this wider Europe has been built on tyranny's defeat.
"The British public deserve a higher level of debate than this and we will do all we can to make sure the debates and arguments ahead will respect the public's intelligence."
Mr Field is seeking to increase the pressure for a vote, calling the draft constitution "horrendous" and saying it would spell the end of Britain's sovereignty.
The prime minister's spokesman would not confirm what Mr Blair and Mr Giscard d'Estaing would be discussing.
But Mr Blair was reported to be planning to lay down a set of "red lines" which would mean a British veto if they were crossed.
There are fears the draft could include giving the EU sweeping new powers. Several member states have already said they will hold a referendum, including Ireland, Sweden, Denmark and Spain.
"When it comes to the establishment of a single European state, the people of Britain should have a choice," Mr Field said.
Controversy promised
Mr Field has indicated his private member's bill will be tabled this week. It would then be for the government to allow time in the Commons for it to be debated.
If the government refused, one of the opposition parties could step in and offer some of their time.
The owner of Telegraph newspapers, Lord Black of Crossharbour, said on Sunday supporters of a referendum were not prepared to abandon their struggle.
"If there is anybody in the government who imagines that there is not going to be a serious controversy about whether a referendum is called for on an issue of the importance of the new constitution of Europe, then I can certainly set their minds at ease - there will be a very serious controversy about that," he told BBC Radio 4.
Recent opinion polls have suggested as many as 84% of voters think a referendum should be held before a new constitution is adopted.
A British campaign group, provisionally called Vote 2004, has been set up by a number of Eurosceptics to campaign for a referendum, according to newspaper reports. |
i remember a few days ago a government minister was quoted as saying that we shouldn't have one because the british people don't understand the issues, if that's the case then why are the people in so many other countries (including the irish for christ's sake, and they can understand something, anyone can...) being given that chance?
the reason is simple, the british people don't want any more power handed over to europe, which is unaccountable and dominated by france and germany. the government would lose any referendum on the issue, as it will on the euro.
richard littlejohn's view
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Monk
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I don't think we're in Brønshøj anymore
Jan 1970
time: 06:28
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There's the saying that if the EU applied for membership in the EU, it would be rejected due to lack of democratic process. I guess the people of the U.K are now supposed to shut up and do as they're told, just like the Germans were. The moral of the story is that you guys are in need of a constitution that puts limits on what the government can do without public approval.
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gsmoove23
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But the Page 3 girl is amazing today and the little bit about pasting Clair Short's head to a page 3 girls body is just so supremely clever!
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Monk
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I don't think we're in Brønshøj anymore
Jan 1970
time: 06:28
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You raise valid points, crunchy dude, but I don't agree with you. You're right in the sense that the public discussion regarding European involvement won't be on any appropriate level. That's the case here as well, where we've had our share of the "They'll take the queen away from us" arguments.
The primary reason why you still need the public approval is that unlike the usual legislative work, it's virtually impossible to undo EU-related decisions which usually comes down to taking power away from the national parlaments which the Brits can regulate themselves.
Secondly, like you said, the Europeans aren't sufficiently informed about the European Union and what it does but it's my honest opinion that the increased debate that wlill certainly forego the referendum will help to make people understand the importance of the issue as long as not everybody reads tabloid newspapers.
Thirdly - and this is extremely important as well - the people need to have some sort of faith in their politicians to help break down the barricades between the ruling elite and the people who voted them into office. Personally, I'd lose faith in my political system if I lived in Germany and had no say at all on the issue.
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:28
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I really don't want a referendum on it. I think Big Crunch's figures show what seems obvious, this is a complex issue, that most people do not understand. We have politicians for these reasons, it is their job to understand and act on the basis of that. I think people are prejudiced against Europe. A vote in Parliament would be enough for me. I don't think this is Blair being a President, since it is not just him making this decision. Much as I am growing to dislike him and Straw, I agree with them on this.
Also, it is a good point that we never had a referendum on Maastrict, something a lot more important IMHO. quote:
We believe that the people of Britain should have the opportunity to vote on any proposed European Constitution. |
They didn't when they were in power.
quote:
doubt he has a choice though, if he doesnt give a referendum, I very much doubt he will win the next election |
I don't think Europe will be a big issue. Like when Hague tried to campaign with "Keep the Pound" and lost, I really don't think the majority of Britain cares. Although saying that, I think so many people just care about what the Sun want's them to care about, so maybe it will be a big thing this time round 
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DinoDoc
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AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:28
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He seems to have learned his lesson from the Irish debacle. It's best not to give the rabble to much say in the workings of the process because you might not get your favored result.
Edit: After reading the rest of the thread, I'm glad to see Big Crunch defending the absurd notion that people are too stupid to decide important issues such as this.
Last edited by DinoDoc on 20-05-2003 at 00:30
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Worthingtons
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Pride Park,Derby
Jan 2002
time: 05:28
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I see Mike is bodd bashing again, shame he doesnt like people with different views to his own.
Anyway, If there is a referendum about 95% of the country will vote NO to Europe, and even that is probably an understatement. We do not want Europe, and we dont want the Euro either. While there may not be significant changes, it's a slippery slope and the people need to be given the chance to stop of from sliding down it NOW.
The only such merger I would agree to is if we Joined the USA.
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Worthingtons
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Pride Park,Derby
Jan 2002
time: 05:28
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And can you just try and leave Racism out of this thread now Mike, since the issue is Europe, and not the Racism of various tabloids.
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19-05-2003 21:18
. I doubt he has a choice though, if he doesnt give a referendum, I very much doubt he will win the next election (assuming it is in this parliament). If he was really shrewed and sneaky, he would force us in just after the next election if he wins. In that case, the next election then becomes the effective referendum.
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