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Sky Dog
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Tucker, GA USA
Jul 2000
time: 00:28
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I'm moving up to Tough as well. I've now dominated the AI in a four-player Survival-Of-The-Fittest the past three or four games on Moderate (without pausing other than to go to the bathroom). I'm usually attacking in Medieval or Gunpowder, and am getting to the Info age. One thing I'm noticing is that no matter what nation I use on Moderate (I play random Civ), I'm able to out-expand the AI pretty early on. I tend to take a noticeable lead in land territory by the Medieval Age (before attacking at all), and from there on it becomes an exercise in leveraging my territorial lead into an economic lead and then into military dominance. In the game I finished just a few moments ago, I got my military really rolling in the Enlightenment Age, and managed to finish the game with all four super-techs researched, while no other nation could make it past Industrial because they were under military assault.
Some thoughts/observations/strategies (particular on water maps....I think they are VERY strategy-oriented):
- Slowly building up my Navy over time with a ship here and a ship there has worked well for me on water maps. As with any resource management game, unless you're saving up for something specific, do SOMETHING with those extra resources, whether it is research, a naval unit, or a land unit.
- Again on water maps, I build a dock ASAP. Fishing provides a cheap and easy bonus to food and wealth.
- In the early going, simply churning out a steady stream of citizens (as in other RTS's) is NOT the most effective resource management. This is particularly true since wood-cutting camps cost food. In other games, those "extra" villies can always chop wood if nothing else. Not true here. Early on, they can end up standing around because there's no room in the resource gathering areas, and not enough food and/or timber to build anything. When it comes time to build that second lumber camp, don't queue up five citizens. Queue up no more than two, and start building the lumber camp as soon as you have enough food to do so.
- On water maps, build a city near your forward coastline ASAP. I won a British Isle Survival-Of-The Fittest game online yesterday by doing just this. My territory extended JUST far enough onto my opponents island to put a fortress on his coast. From there I was able to leverage the extra territory to eventually build a full-blown city, complete with military buildings, on the coast of his island. That extra city gave me the econ boost to put me over the edge. The flip side of this is that building that coastal city will prevent another player from doing what I did.
- Coastal fortresses are a WONDERFUL thing. They occupy an opponents bombarding navy for a LONG time, and they do damage themselves. They also help weaken any amphibious landing force when there's no navy around. I try to build a fortresses in every coastal city near the front lines, as well as at key coastal choke points.
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Whitra
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quote:
Not as easy as it seems. I tried that, but Supply Wagons will rarely go to the front of it, staying in behind, so spies have to move past the rest of troops... possible with their cloaking, but not that easy. |
Is it possible to put them with the general and use the Forced March to get them past the enemy quickly?
I lose way too many generals in my game.. My special forces always have a general with them so they can force march to good sniping/sabotaging positions, and my generals often find themselves heroically leading from the front...
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albiedamned
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Ellicott City, MD
Sep 2001
time: 00:28
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I watched your replay, and you did very well. I noticed the suicidal AI behavior you mentioned when he kept running guys across the field of fire of your fort - didn't make sense to me either. There was one point in either Gunpowder or Enlightenment when he came down on your fort from the north with a sizable force while your forces were all south of the fort and facing east. He actually could have flanked you pretty badly there, but he didn't bring along a supply wagon and that was a fatal mistake. Your light cav finished off what was left of him while your main line never budged. I did like what you did with using massed commandoes to blow up buildings - I'll have to try that. One question - how come you didn't attack sooner? It sure looked like you could have built a few more bombards in gunpowder, moved your army up to the border, and started pounding him. And one piece of constructive criticism from your early game - it's probably not worthwhile to research commerce unless you are in a position take advantage of the raised commerce cap, ie, you can build enough new farms or woodcutter camps. I think you researched the second commerce advance (to raise the cap to 150) well before you had a third city, thus you couldn't take advantage of the food.
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albiedamned
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Ellicott City, MD
Sep 2001
time: 00:28
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Believe me I'm still learning the game myself. I'm playing on Tough and I've gotten quite good at booming, but I haven't tried a rush yet. I did however successfully fend off an AI classical age rush, and I didn't even have a barracks when the attack started! I was proud of myself for not panicking in that situation. My next game is going to be my first using the Assassin game type.
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Flayer
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whatever cute little formulas u wanna use you can only have 1 Caravan between 2 cities.
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Flayer
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If you dont have military tech in the Ancient Age and you get rushed with a few heavy infantry its gg
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albiedamned
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Ellicott City, MD
Sep 2001
time: 00:28
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I agree - you have to research Military 1 in ancient to be able to handle a rush. However that is all you have to do - you don't necessarily need a barracks or a tower. But if you see the rush coming, you need to start a barracks immediately.
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albiedamned
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Ellicott City, MD
Sep 2001
time: 00:28
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By the way, I thought it was 2 researches to go to Classical, not 5. I often don't go to Classical until 5 researches however - all 4 first level plus an extra Science. But I think you only need 2. Each age after Classical then requires 4 more.
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Sky Dog
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Tucker, GA USA
Jul 2000
time: 00:28
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Of course, it is a good bit easier to fend off the rush if you get a tower up somewhere and get some attrition goin'.
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albiedamned
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Ellicott City, MD
Sep 2001
time: 00:28
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Ctulu - For the sake of practice, set up a 1 vs 1 game against an AI opponent that is good at rushing, like the Japanese. Select the smallest map, Arena. And in the player dropdown menu, select Computer/Rush for the opponent instead of regular Computer. This will pretty much insure that you'll face a very early rush. You'll probably find that skipping Military research in the Ancient age will get you killed.
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Ctulu
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Ancient Underwater Base
May 2003
time: 06:28
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check this recorded game out (rename it . rec instead of .rec.wav)
chineze(me)-romans on though, and romans are rush nation
...maybe I'm lucky, maybe I'm crap, I dunno, but I win
 Attachment: playback - 2003.05.26 17'42'54 (mon).rec.wav
This has been downloaded 14 time(s).
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albiedamned
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Ellicott City, MD
Sep 2001
time: 00:28
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Ctulu - I watched about the first 12 minutes of your replay. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Yes the Romans can be a good rusher, but they didn't rush you in this game. Plus you researched military fairly early (3rd overall), so you would have had a good chance if they had rushed. But earlier you said you rarely research Military in Ancient, thus my original point about being vulnerable to a rush. Next time when you set up the game, select "Computer/Rush" for your opponent instead of regular "Computer" - then the AI will most likely rush and you can practice defending it.
Regarding your rush of the computer, you had a good balanced force with 2 heavy, 2 archers, 1 light. But I'm not sure what your overall objective was. You took out a few civs, a woodcutters camp, and a barracks before the computer wiped your rush out. If your focus was economic, you should have brought more archers and looked just for civilians. If your focus was trying to win the game early, then forget the archers, bring more heavy inf, and go right for the capital.
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Flayer
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Ctulu that replay is pointless. A good rush will hit you under 3 minutes. So what that the Romans are a good rush nation? they didnt rush you in that game.
beating the rush > Japanese Rush staved off replay
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Ctulu
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Ancient Underwater Base
May 2003
time: 06:28
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My focus was to harass him.
Every building you waste is a resource wasted and thus an economic advantage, regarthless if its a military and/or economic structure. the AI also wasted some resources on the civ's/inf's. As a result I augmented my chances to gain the upperhand, which I did In the longer run of this game.
My point is if u get harassed by rushers, harass them first! Use the enemies strat's before they use them on you.
And the computer/rush setting was something I didn't know, thanks for the tip. I'll try that later on the Japanese, perhaps I'll begin to want militia tech earlier on as somone (perhaps you) stated earlier in this post
PS: I will burry my head in shame and let it shop off for my pointlesness
PPS: I never got rushed in Rise of Nations yet so I will no longer continue my pointless remarks until I suffered from a rush and found a way to counter this!
sorry guys 4 waisting your time
Last edited by Ctulu on 26-05-2003 at 23:34
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Solver
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Apolyton Duke Of Something
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Latvia, Riga
Sep 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
Every building you waste is a resource wasted and thus an economic advantage, regarthless if its a military and/or economic structure. the AI also wasted some resources on the civ's/inf's. As a result I augmented my chances to gain the upperhand, which I did In the longer run of this game.
My point is if u get harassed by rushers, harass them first! Use the enemies strat's before they use them on you.
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Well, if you tear down a small building at a huge cost of your units, then it's not always worth it...
And you don't exactly hit the rusher with his own weapon. You play at home defensive, and once you manage to beat that rush, you play to exactly the opposite advantage - not a suprise strike, but a strike with a better army, because he had his entire force wiped out in his failed rush, and, if you were good, you're at least on par economically with him.
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Ctulu
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Ancient Underwater Base
May 2003
time: 06:28
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Well, if you tear down a small building at a huge cost of your units, then it's not always worth it...
And you don't exactly hit the rusher with his own weapon. You play at home defensive, and once you manage to beat that rush, you play to exactly the opposite advantage - not a suprise strike, but a strike with a better army, because he had his entire force wiped out in his failed rush, and, if you were good, you're at least on par economically with him.
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Solver
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Apolyton Duke Of Something
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Latvia, Riga
Sep 2000
time: 07:28
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Updated!
Beggining the game
What you do when you start the game can largely decide whether you win or lose. The decisions made in the first two minutes are absolutely crucial, and a good player will know what is he doing. However, one of the things that makes Rise of Nations shine is the no fixed starting build order - you can generally try several paths, all of them with their upsides and downsides. [Age of Kings note here: remember, the standard 25 villager Feudal Age, with doing exactly the same things every time for the first 10 minutes?]
However, here's an outline of the basic tips at beggining. Pause the game, if single-player. Now, take a look around. You have got your nice little city, a few peasants, and a Library, most likely. The first things you want to do are to get your economy going. While paused, do this: order to build citizens. Now, select your scout. It's not an easy decision now... you can either press Ctrl+E and have him scout automatically, or do it the old fashioned way and scout by yourself, setting waypoints, etc.
The professional player will clearly want to manage the scout manually, to sometimes explore more in one direction or other. However, it can be quite a problem for the less experienced players - it's often easy to forget your scout, and find out that he's sitting there idle, and you have little land discovered. That sucks, especially in RoN, where you have toknow the terrain to select the best locations for your next cities, as well as evaluate the strategic positions for future battles. If you feel that you can't control the scout, sure, let it go automatically. All in all, it will do a pretty decent job, concentrically scouting around your land, revelaing the rare resources (and picking some stuff from ruins!), and then heading on for lands closer to the bad guys.
Now that you have your scout moving and the citizens queued, it's time to go to the Library and select your first technology to research. I do very strongly recommend that Science Level 1, Written Word, is your first item of research. You get the access to Temple, which is something you want early on anyway, for the border booster, and best of all, you get a 10% cost and speed discount on your future researches.
For the start of your economy, of course, Food and Timber matter, and both about equally, although I tend to prioritize Food a little bit. Therefore - my first goal in the game is to get myself up to 5 farms ASAP. You start with 3, and 2 more get built by the first two citizens that come out, thus attempting to ensure continious flow of civilian units from now on. Not that it's enough, though. Now, just as you would, keep pumping them citizens out, till you have also your first Woodcutter's camp full. Try to have the Library researching something whenever you can.
What is the second tech to go for, then? Again, you can basically do anything that you like here, but I will often go for Civics level 1 Government, following Commerce Level 1 Barter then. Why Government? Because it gives you the ability to construct a second city, rather simple it is, no? And when you switch to an empire of two cities, it's where you start to reap many advantages. Notice here - if you're Bantu, you're a BIG step ahead of the game. With your (much!) cheaper cities, you absolutely have to research Civics level 1 ASAP, and then just go for a second city. IIRC, the cost was 15 food 15 timbr for Bantu second city, no?
From your capitol, get 2-3 citizens to a place that seems comfortable enough and build your second city, thus granting yourself another economic center, a border expansion and more options. Yet again, my goal is Food, and I want to fill the second city with 5 farms as soon as I can. I hopefully don't have Timber problems now. If the original forest near capital is big enough, then the full Woodcutter's camp is providing quite an income. If not, then I will also throw a timber gather point here at the second city, but still, 5 more Farms here are the priority. I guess then, it's easy to see why the Commerce level 1 is such a priority, I don't exactly need 10 farms if I have a low commerce cap.
So, a few minutes into the game, I want to have two cities, 10 Farms, some Timber income also from one or two sources, and I generally put a Temple in my capital as soon as I get that extra timber. Now, what to research next? Yet again - if you have the resources, keep the library busy, unless saving the money for an age jump. It now won't exactly matter if you for the Military research ASAP, or if you want Science level 2 first, whatever... look at your resources, evaulate the possibilities. However, you DO NOT want to skip Military level 1 tech. Some people have tried that, and it's a pretty terrible idea. You have to get Military level 1 to be able to build a Barracks or a Tower - basically, anything that can fight. Now, remember the Japanese, with which a good player will go on and attack you at 3 minutes. You know, if you get even a single military unit in your land when you don't even have the Military level 1 researched, you're positively screwed.
Classical Age is indeed a very good thing, but shouldn't be the 100% goal. Sure, you can go to classical without military technology and poor Timber income, but what good it gives? Go to the Classical age at your own convenience, but when you have researched level 1 for all the research branches... I've tried skipping civics at all, and delaying the second city till Classical, but the results were terrible.
Now, sometimes I get that extra Timber coming in fast while I am accumulating the final food for my classical jump. A few things to do early - if you have two cities, get a Market up and build a caravan. That's some wealth for you... In the Classical Age, you probably want to have a Temple in every of your cities. And, here it goes - if you have the Timber, build your first Barracks in Ancient or while going to Classical. It doesn't mean that you immediately have to rush or mass an army, but it's much better to have a building capable of producing some troops at need immediately.
Also, I try to get my first tower up in early Classical or during the advance, even. The reasoning here is rather simple. Attrition level 1 can be researched at the tower, and it matters. Psychologically, the enemy doesn't want to see his troops take that attition, and it also actually helps you defend against those damn rushes. Where to put that first tower? Look at the situation... if your second city seems like an area exposed to attack, then it's there. However, all things being equal, I prefer the tower in the capital, for it is really, really, REALLY annoying if an enemy manages to attack your capital early on.
The above guidelines have been set with a pretty peaceful beggining in mind. Of course, if you intend to be rushing your enemy, it has to be different, one thing being that you need to prioritize your Military research and actually make troops from your barracks. I am still to explore most of the possibilities for the early rushes, and will post on those some other day. For now, however, let me give you this tip - you can harass the enemy VERY early with almost nothing. Note that this requires good (probably manual) scouting, you have to know where the enemy capital is.
Early on, build your Barracks and two heavy infantry (hoplites, probably). Then just send them to attack the enemy library. IIRC, the library will go down to two Hoplies in 1:40. Now, the ball is in your enemy's court. Possibly he still has no military techs, and then you've just disturbed him, and probably got him quickly shifting gears in panic. In the meanwhile, continue the economic buildup, but augment your two hoplites with a slinger unit or two, maybe. Works fine with, say, Romans, who get free units with Barracks anyway. Point is, if you take his Library down, he's seriously behind. And then you can also catch around some hapless civilians running in his town... a great thing to do!
More on rushes and specific civs to follow somewhen  .
Last edited by Solver on 31-05-2003 at 17:38
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24-05-2003 18:44
(must admit the chinse lend them well to an early attack)
, but for now it didn't seem to bother me that much, as most of the time I am ahead of the AI, I think your townbell suffice enough in Ancient
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