27-05-2003 00:01									#61
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*Well, if you tear down a small building at a huge cost of your units, then it's not always worth it...*
...taking in consideration, I have yet to learn to strike where it counts

*And you don't exactly hit the rusher with his own weapon. You play at home defensive, and once you manage to beat that rush, you play to exactly the opposite advantage* ... i struk first with a small rush
I use 1 rush most of the time to harass him, after that I tech my units in to superiour ones

*not a suprise strike, but a strike with a better army, because he had his entire force wiped out in his failed rush*...see above

*and, if you were good, you're at least on par economically with him* what do you mean? was I behind? Didn't I play well?

Perhaps I got a lot to learn yet, it seems like I'm not that good a player after all , taking in consideration your reaction.

	27-05-2003 00:04									#62
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*Well, if you tear down a small building at a huge cost of your units, then it's not always worth it...*
...taking in consideration, I have yet to learn to strike where it counts

*And you don't exactly hit the rusher with his own weapon. You play at home defensive, and once you manage to beat that rush, you play to exactly the opposite advantage* ... i struk first with a small rush
I use 1 rush most of the time to harass him, after that I tech my units in to superiour ones

*not a suprise strike, but a strike with a better army, because he had his entire force wiped out in his failed rush*...see above

*and, if you were good, you're at least on par economically with him* what do you mean? was I behind? Didn't I play well?

Perhaps I got a lot to learn yet, it seems like I'm not that good a player after all , taking in consideration your reaction.

	27-05-2003 00:08									#63
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Sorry if I sounded harsh, wasn't meant that way. I was just, as usual, poiting out the weak sides while not praising the good ones .

I think that really the thing you need to practice now is knowing where and what to strike after you either rush yourself, or beat an enemy rush and turn it into an atttack of your own.

quote: *and, if you were good, you're at least on par economically with him* what do you mean? was I behind? Didn't I play well?

This one was meant about any game of RoN in general with a rush, not this one...

	27-05-2003 00:24									#64
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*Well, if you tear down a small building at a huge cost of your units, then it's not always worth it...*
...taking in consideration, I have yet to learn to strike where it counts

*And you don't exactly hit the rusher with his own weapon. You play at home defensive, and once you manage to beat that rush, you play to exactly the opposite advantage* ... i struk first with a small rush
I use 1 rush most of the time to harass him, after that I tech my units in to superiour ones

*not a suprise strike, but a strike with a better army, because he had his entire force wiped out in his failed rush*...see above

*and, if you were good, you're at least on par economically with him* what do you mean? was I behind? Didn't I play well?

Perhaps I got a lot to learn yet, it seems like I'm not that good a player after all , taking in consideration your reaction.

	27-05-2003 00:47									#65
	Remove this text

mmm, just beat the Bantu (random nation) in 8 min 13 on though, AI was on Rush mode. I rushed him, no worries

strat was easy
-lvl 1 military + farm + some civs
-barack + farm + 1 civ
-kept cranking out Hoplites, waypoint at presumed capitol location, and pulverised him

he didn't even build a single infantry unit? something wrong with the AI? he was DEFINETLEY on rush, instead he build 2 capitols, and kept expanding? any logic in the AI here?

But after seeing the devastating effects of a rush (by my hand) I must admit that the lacking of attrition is considerebally a weakness for the one on the recieving end. I myself thought this game was specially developped to discourage rushing, am somewhat disapointed, and hope they add attrition damage from the start as default(no militia research) in the upcomming patch.

	27-05-2003 01:04									#66
	Increase Your PM Length

Well, RoN was definitely supposed to give you games longer than 15 minute matches that end with a quick rush.

I wonder... the AI HAD to have a military (and attrition) by 8 minutes...

	27-05-2003 01:51									#67
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Sounds like you are playing 3 levels easier than you should be, or maybe slower game speed with lots of pausing.

My advice: Crank the speed, crank the difficulty, limit yourself to 3 pauses.

Do one or all of those, the AI will own u once more :-p

	27-05-2003 01:51									#68
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see it ... believe it
and I swear it was on comp/rush and though,
instead of rushing he just seemed consered with expanding

I admit to the pausing, that it has become second nature, but I don't consider it as cheating for an AI takes instant descision, wich for a human brain is nearly impossible to do in a game with this depth (TBS influences remember), speed is normal, but it's only my 5ft game on though, and I won 4 out of 5,

perhaps starting on thougher tomorow

Attachment: chineze_rush.rec.wav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

Last edited by Ctulu on 27-05-2003 at 01:56

	27-05-2003 02:54									#69
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OK. Been playing on Tough the last few days. I won an 8-player FFA pretty handily yesterday. Right now I'm a little past the 1-hour mark in a 2v2v2v2 game, on Big Huge, Random Map (British Isles is what I ended up with...everyone on their own island). My team is leading by a small bit, but this one is FAR from over. Right now, my ally (BLUE) is holding his own on his home island just fine. He's at Age 6. I'm in Age 8, locked in a battle against GREEN (Age 8) and PURPLE (Age 5). Blue's island is to my west, green is to my east, and purple is to my southeast. Just some observations on the AI in this game:

Something it does VERY VERY poorly
USE OF AIR POWER--GREEN has probably sent over 100 fighters to certain death over my island, but I've yet to see nary a bomber. I have about 20 SAM installations, yet it is continuing to send a fighter every few seconds. Meanwhile, I am locked in a FIERCE battle on his partner (purple's) island, both with Green and Purple. I am using fighters and bombers based on my home island but I've yet to see him send a SINGLE fighter over there to counter. He just keeps sending 'em one-by-one to my home island in a vain attempt to knock down the Statue of Liberty. He DID eventually get some anti-air ships into the mix after a while (see below) to do some damage to my planes, but so far he hasn't used the fighters.

Something it does VERY VERY well
Naval strategy and tactics--From a tactical standpoint, it always seems to send the right counters to the right place (very much different from the way it uses airborne units). Also, once again the AI just about made me wet my pants with a BEAUTIFUL blockade that it pulled off. As I mentioned, we had been fighting fiercely on purple's island. I had taken three cities, and was slowly advancing (mainly because I had complete air superiority since green's fighters were on the Continual Flight of Death over my island). At any rate, the situation was too still too tenuous for me to build more than one of each military building on the coastal city of the new island, so reinforcements were coming via transport. Well, as I was getting the upper hand (haven taken three cities), I got a bit lazy with regard to watching my rear. I had 3 or 4 subs and 3 or 4 battleships stationed off of the coastal city on the new island to provide safe passage for my troop reinforcements. Well, lo and behold, JUST as I had about assimilated that third city, I get the "(FORGOT NAME OF CITY) LOST" message. I look on the mini-map at the coastal city and see green, and I mean LOTS of green, just off the coast. Scrolling up there, Ol' SkyDog sees about 15 green ships of various classes (including some missle boats hitting my planes as they flew to and from their missions finally). They had taken out my small naval security force, and of course, without troop reinforcements, I lost all three cities on that island pretty quickly after that. I thought that would be a good point to pause and post this. I'll probably resume that game some time this evening.

Something it can work on
CONFUSION WHEN ATTACKED--When it loses a city or strategic point, it has a tendency to send troops into certain death, often one-by-one. This may be a tough one to fix.


Overall, I'd STILL say that this is the best AI I've seen. Really, if usage of air power can be tweaked, I'll be one happy camper.

	27-05-2003 05:04									#70
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Heh ... I had a very similar naval experience yesterday in a CtW round where I was invading a city. The map was two islands separated by water, and the two AI navies pounded the crap out of one of my poor coastal cities. Just as I was losing the city, though, the cavalry arrived, in the form of a group of Frigates I'd built at a 2nd dock further away from the battle. When I sandwiched the AI between my land army and my navy, I was able to crush them as they had nowhere to retreat.

Wish I'd saved that replay!

	27-05-2003 05:52									#71
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Ctulu - I think putting it on Computer/Rush makes it more likely that it will rush, but not guaranteed. You'll know it when it rushes you, because I think it's always the same: 4 hoplites and a slinger at around the 4 minute mark.

	27-05-2003 05:58									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Solver From your capitol, get 2-3 citizens to a place that seems comfortable enough and build your second city, thus granting yourself another economic center, a border expansion and more options. Yet again, my goal is Food, and I want to fill the second city with 5 farms as soon as I can. I hopefully don't have Timber problems now. If the original forest near capital is big enough, then the full Woodcutter's camp is providing quite an income. If not, then I will also throw a timber gather point here at the second city, but still, 5 more Farms here are the priority. I guess then, it's easy to see why the Commerce level 1 is such a priority, I don't exactly need 10 farms if I have a low commerce cap.

Solver - Overall you give very good advice. However I am going to nitpick on the part I quoted above. 5 farms right away on your second city is overkill assuming you've only researched one level of commerce. Your commerce cap will be +100, so with 2 cities giving you 10 each and 5 farms at your first city, you are already at +70. Thus 3 farms is the ideal number until you research second level commerce. Going over the commerce cap is never good, since the excess is wasted.

One other point where I disagree with you is on building a temple as the first economic building. I usually go for the market first instead. There are valid arguments both ways. However I prefer the market first because it gets me an immediate gold income and lets me get my caravans and merchants started. The only immediate benefit of the temple is to your borders, and to your city strength. Neither of these matter too much in the extreme early game, although of course they do matter a lot later. I usually build the market near my capital, and then the temple near my second city, assuming my second city is further towards the center of the map (which it usually is). Basically I'll build the first temple wherever it will give me the most extra territory. The temple is a better choice to build first if you think you will be rushed since it helps your city attack strength and hit points, but bottom line it will do you no good on its own without also researching military and building a barracks.

	27-05-2003 07:43									#73
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Gj everyone However, I think this would be more effective in a temporary document, which can later be turned into an article ;-). I know it's already easy to read, but a word document for dl would be easier for someone to print out. Just a thought.

	27-05-2003 08:23									#74
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Ctulu - Check out this recorded game which I just played for a good example of a game winning rush. I played the Maya, for no particular reason. They have no unique units that make them good for rushing, though their reduced wood costs for buildings makes the barracks easier to build. It was a Small map, Southwest Mesa style, random computer opponent on Tough. The opponent turned out to be the Turks.

I researched Science first, then Military. Meantime I filled out my starting lumber camp and built 2 more farms for 5 total farms. Then I built the barracks. From that point forward I did nothing but build military. Two hoplites and a slinger to start, followed by a continuous stream of hoplites as I got the needed resources. Meantime I had sent my explorer clear across the map and found the enemy. My first two hoplites and one slinger reached their capital (I ignored their second city) at 3:55. It could have been a little faster maybe on an Arena map, but this was the Small map so it took a little longer. He had no defenses at all, so while my hoplites hit the city I microed my slingers to go after civilians and caravans, including some civilians who dared to try to build a tower. The additional hoplites kept arriving, and the capital fell at about 5:50. I used the +500 plunder to build a whole stream of additional units, then just basically waited while the victory counter ran down. Once I assimilated the city I actually popped out a few civilians and built a tower of my own, as well as repairing the city.

This strategy would not have worked had the computer been prepared. If he had a tower, he could have garrisoned his civilians there and probably killed my units as they arrived one at a time (as well as possibly researching attrition). And if he had a barracks, a few archers would have killed me, since I only had one slinger. So this was an example of what Brian Reynolds talked about a few weeks ago in Bridger's thread about early rushing. If your opponent has made no preparations at all, then yes, an early heavy inf rush can work. But even the least bit of preparation can probably stop it. So good players just need to make sure they do that bit of early preparation.

Edit - Bridger's thread which I referred to above is actually on RON Heaven, not Apolyton. Click here for it. Warning - the discussion is "lively". But do check out the post by Brian Reynolds on page 4 about a third of the way down.

Last edited by albiedamned on 27-05-2003 at 08:37

	27-05-2003 09:23									#75
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Heh.. that game sounds like a rush I tried myself after reading here. It was on Southwest Mesas, and I had Aztecs. Those flaming Atl-Atls make quick work of a city.

I dikn't really go for the throat though, I just used the rush to take out the AI's 2nd city and split its nation in half. It was fun watching caravans get shot down as they drove by my towers


BTW, that is one excellent thread on RoN heaven. Interested parties can go directly to Brian's message on rushing using this link:

http://ron.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/...,0,0,10&st=75#7

Attachment: carch-aztec rush 2003.05.26 14'49'31 (mon).zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

Last edited by Carch on 27-05-2003 at 09:47

	27-05-2003 11:39									#76
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quote: Originally posted by albiedamned ... I researched Science first, then Military. Meantime I filled out my starting lumber camp and built 2 more farms for 5 total farms. Then I built the barracks. From that point forward I did nothing but build military. Two hoplites and a slinger to start, followed by a continuous stream of hoplites as I got the needed resources. ...

I don't see the utility to research science in a rush, okay 10% cheaper military lvl1, but the science lvl 1 resources could have been better spend later on on unit production, every resource counts

quote: ... Meantime I had sent my explorer clear across the map and found the enemy. ...

seems unnecesesairy, by default you can guess the location of your enemies capitol, no? And if you let your explorer roam the map like in a normal game you could get additional resources discovering ruins and such.

quote: ... My first two hoplites and one slinger reached their capital (I ignored their second city) ...

... forgot about the slinger myself

quote: ... He had no defenses at all ...

was the AI on comp/rush also?? It bothers me that AI on rush doesn't necesairilly acts likewise.

quote: ... This strategy would not have worked had the computer been prepared. If he had a tower, he could have garrisoned his civilians there and probably killed my units as they arrived one at a time (as well as possibly researching attrition). And if he had a barracks, a few archers would have killed me, since I only had one slinger. So this was an example of what Brian Reynolds talked about a few weeks ago in Bridger's thread about early rushing. If your opponent has made no preparations at all, then yes, an early heavy inf rush can work. But even the least bit of preparation can probably stop it. So good players just need to make sure they do that bit of early preparation. ...

I see your point GG

	27-05-2003 17:12									#77
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In response to your comments:

- You're right - researching science was not necessary and I probably could have cut my time down another 30 or seconds without it. It's just a habit thought for me to hit L-T right at the start.

- Interesting point about the explorer. You can guess the general location of the enemy, but knowing the exact location of the capital saves time since you don't have to wander at all with your slow heavy inf looking for it. But getting additional ruins bonuses would help too. Definitely something to consider.

- The AI in my game was not on Computer/Rush, just regular Computer.

One other thing about this attack. It would not have gone well in a game with more than one opponent. Yes I could have rushed and taken out the first opponent with this strategy, but then I would be well behind the other opponents. What would I do with the enemy capital and possibly second city? It's clear across the map from my home base, thus making it very hard to defend. If there were other opponents, I probably would have razed as many of the enemy buildings as I could while using the +500 plunder back at home to catch up on research and get some economic buildings (temple, market) going. But I would still be behind most likely.

	27-05-2003 17:46									#78
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No doubt, a rush is only effective in a 1v1 (or maybe in a 2v2?), otherwise you suffer tremendously against the other!!

and your point about the explorer has some value to it, but after the discovery of the capitol, i would set him on autoexplore or set some waypoints, you never know if you encounter ruins hey

	27-05-2003 18:57									#79
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After I discovered the capital I used my explorer to keep wandering around the capital looking for any sneaky stuff the opponent might be trying, like building a tower or barracks. Again, it's a trade off. Going off on auto-explore to find ruins is good, but so is scouting.

	27-05-2003 20:24									#80
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quote: Solver - Overall you give very good advice. However I am going to nitpick on the part I quoted above. 5 farms right away on your second city is overkill assuming you've only researched one level of commerce. Your commerce cap will be +100, so with 2 cities giving you 10 each and 5 farms at your first city, you are already at +70. Thus 3 farms is the ideal number until you research second level commerce. Going over the commerce cap is never good, since the excess is wasted.

It's usually balanced with the second Commerce research, if possible. Anyway, it's not possible to put 5 new Farms immediately at 2nd city - I said ASAP, not immediately in my post - there are Timber limits anyway...

quote: One other point where I disagree with you is on building a temple as the first economic building. I usually go for the market first instead. There are valid arguments both ways. However I prefer the market first because it gets me an immediate gold income and lets me get my caravans and merchants started. The only immediate benefit of the temple is to your borders, and to your city strength. Neither of these matter too much in the extreme early game, although of course they do matter a lot later. I usually build the market near my capital, and then the temple near my second city, assuming my second city is further towards the center of the map (which it usually is).

For me, there's often a point before I get my second city, but already have some eccess timber and maybe a citizen with not much to do. That's when the Temple goes up... Market might be up though before city in second temple, yes. But, this is something very debatable in both ways.

	27-05-2003 21:35									#81
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I like the temple more because of the additional city locations it gets you. My early game is characterized with mad city construction, so if I can place a city in an easier-to-defend location closer to the enemy sooner, I will.

BTW I'm slowly warming to this game, CtW is the only way...

	27-05-2003 22:55									#82
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Just countered the Japanese as they rushed me .. I crushed them like a bugg, it only takes a tower as you said, lvl 1 attrition not even needed.

I just rushed to barracks-tower and popped some units in it, played as Turks.

If you can counter the (IMO) strongest rush nation, you can counter them all!

Last edited by Ctulu on 27-05-2003 at 23:02

	27-05-2003 23:27									#83
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Yup - beating off an AI rush gives you a lot of confidence in your ability to handle the rush in general. But like you said, had you not even researched military at the time you got rushed, you would have been in trouble.

	27-05-2003 23:42									#84
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just repeat the start (barracks-towers) over and over again, after that you're save and can follow every path you like...R just set the rush time on information age ;p

	28-05-2003 00:15									#85
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Attrition level 1 nonethless is a terrific help for rush counters.

	28-05-2003 00:17									#86
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You're absolutley right

	28-05-2003 00:20									#87
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It's of utmost importance on some maps to place the first tower correctly. Early game rushes will not consider of anything more than a few units. This being the case, if you place your tower at a location that is convenient for your enemy to attack, he will have to find a way around the tower, thus having a little bit of the point of his rush (speed) wasted.

	28-05-2003 01:08									#88
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See, this is the thing that bugs me about rushes. In order to counter a properly executed rush in a default setup game, you HAVE to research military first and put up a tower. The opponent has already dictated your first few moves.

That just sucks.

It may be a perfectly valid strategy, but I don't like having my moves decided for me.

	28-05-2003 02:35									#89
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thats why this game can restrict rushes as default, setting a timer or an age
so no worries

	28-05-2003 04:37									#90
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Another good rush stopper is a bunch of spies. In a recent game, I was Industrial-Modern Age, my ally was in Industrial Age (big help) and the one enemy left alive was in Modern-Information. I have a medium sized army Dug In near my cities, and he was sending a diverse group of tanks and artillery to take me down. He would've done it easily to, except I had 5-6 Spies bribing his tanks. After the tanks started fighting each other, I destroyed his Supply Wagons with planes and he was forced to retreat.

Moral: Spies, coupled with Attrition damage, can be a cheap and VERY effect rush counter.