21-05-2003 06:19									#31
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I am TOTALLY confused by the arguments in this thread.

Isn't it just much much more simple than has been framed?

We are going to war with CDG.

We want to go into the war with enough force to ensure a win (somewhere between Powell and Rumfeld doctrines, depending on relative strength at unit, total force, defense, and mobility levels).

We would prefer to enter the war post-Republic, although this is not critical.

So, no big whoop.

The only critical point that we all need to agree upon, within the general direction of the AltSp, is that we are now going to be on a military footing (maybe with some shields for exploration), and when the time is right, we go for it.

Am I missing something?

Rather than try to project hypotheticals now, won;t we be better able to gauge CDG's production performance over time down the road? Won;t we have a better sense of geo-politics / CDG vs. GCA / land grab opportunities / etc. down the road? Won't we have a better sense of our warfighting and warstaging capabilties down the road?

Fine, we are preparing for war... let's get on with it.

	21-05-2003 06:24									#32
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In the chat just now, Tirp and I have been debating our points of view. Trip's is well known and well explained here, and his first post especially makes a lot of sense. I agree that we need to get CDG before they have Feudalism, or at least if they DO get it we need to stop them getting Pikes. Swords 3 vs Spears 2 is also a better option than Med Inf's 4 vs Pike's 3.

BUT, a Despotic GA is what I consider last resort. These things are horrible. If we spend our GA on killing CDG, we don't have it later when everyone else does, where they can use it to aid them the most.

Let's look at things here - why would we want to attack CDG in the first place? They are dangerous, so we should eliminate their threat. They have some land that will be useful to us in the long run. It might simplify diplomatic matters somewhat. OK, fine. Good reasons. BUT, looking at what they have, I'm not impressed. What little they have will not benefit us very much - it might be enough to put us into the number one spot briefly, but when we have to clear jungle, we will fall back again. Yes jungle is great eventually, but, especially here, eventually is a LONG time.

I'm not saying that taking CDG's stuff wouldn't be great - it would, but we would have to prepare to lag behind because of their crap positioning. This is where the GA comes in, that thing that delivers you from doom and can put your civ on top of the world - this has happened to all of us many times over in SP games, and it can be true for this game too. Such a tool would be invaluable to us. If we trigger it in Despotism (ie earlier), we gain a few extra shields from most cities. This is limited to tiles that already get one or more than three resources due to the Despotic restrictions. That doesn't amount to too many, especially seeing as our cities will be smaller and fewer in number than when we have reached any other form of Government (e later). Big deal.

HOWEVER, if we were in any other form of Government (even Monarchy), the GA applies to ALL tiles with shields, and we will have more tiles worked also. This is a MUCH greater advantage than in Despotism. Now it is suggested that we will only be building units with the GA anyway. Alright, if I assume this, then we will end up with more of them in Monarchy or Republic. How is this significant? It allows us more troops to upgrade in the future (Knights/MedInf in the very near future by then), and allows us to actually protect our new lands, with troops to spare. Earlier, we will have to be very careful with how we spread our troops - dispersed and weakened by CDG, we may be prime candidate for any other civ feeling perturbed by our actions (say GCA decides to end the Poly threat before it goes for them too).

My overall feeling to all of this is that we must prepare now for a war. We shouldn't go all out in building units to the point we neglect our own growth, but we need to be ready just in case. We should aim the war for the best time for our GA - when we have Republic, and hopefully before they have Feudalism. We should be more than ready to accept a Monarchic GA, if the opportunity is good enough, or if it becomes clear that our window is closing. We should also be prepared to attack even before Monarchy if the opportunity is REALLY good. But personally I don't see any opportunity being good enough to give up our GA for, and any of these hypothetical opportunities had better be damn amazing. We are certainly not at any of these situations now, nor are any of them coming in the very near future.

We can afford to wait before committing ourselves, in fact it would pay for us to wait. Let's just keep in mind Trip's (and others') comments, and be vigilant for such situations.

	21-05-2003 06:30									#33
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Once we get Republic, before they get Feudalism. It's a no-brainer.

No other period of time affords us the best advantage both militarily and economically. If CDG decides to go against GCA during that time, they will be crushed. If they go against us, it will be a more easy fight than if we go to war very soon (as Trip wants) or too late (as Dominae wants).

Saving your GA for the perfect time is incredibly valuable. If we spend it on a war so be it, but let it also net us some economic benefit.

As for Republic or Monarchy, defninitely republic. Consider how many turns we'll waste in anarchy switching twice.

	21-05-2003 06:35									#34
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BTW, is it just me or do the first 2 cornerstones of this plan reek of my Evil Plans???

(I guess I'm doing something right...)

	21-05-2003 06:40									#35
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How do we ensure that we get Republic before they get Feudalism? We'll probably get Republic about the time that everyone else enters the Medieval Age (as I've said elsewhere, it's only 3 techs away after the current tech deal, and it's not out of the question that the other teams could get the 2 techs besides CoL (which we'll be researching) quite easily while we're researching Republic), and CDG, being Persia, will get a free tech. If we upgrade to the next patch (which is worldwide, and will probably be before we enter the Medieval Age), then that means it could be Monotheism, Engineering or Feudalism. If they get Feudalism, then they can easily prepare for our offensive before we get Feudalism and/or Chivalry for ourselves. That would ensure that things end very badly, if they get 20-30 turns to prepare Pikemen.

	21-05-2003 07:10									#36
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J*sus Chr*st, I'm an idiot!!!

A month or two ago, when we were getting going, I played an AU game as Carthage to prep for here.

I totally forgot to report... MASSIVE Swords build, didn;t use my NMs at all.

Screw CDG... given our production advantage, can't we just take them on with Swords / MedInf?

	21-05-2003 07:56									#37
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Two small points to make:

We all assume that if CDG is sane and smart, they will attack GCA now, while their UU is strong. We assume they are smart enough to know that they won't attack us because it would be fruitless.

WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF OF THEIR TACTICAL INTELLIGENCE. ON THE CONTRARY, WE HAVE MOUNTING EVIDENCE THAT THEIR TACTICS ARE NOT SOUND. THEREFORE ANY ARGUMENT THAT BEGINS "IF CDG IS SMART...." IS QUESTIONABLE.

Sorry for the caps, but I think that's a very valid point that we're ignoring more and more often lately. CDG has *NOT* displayed 'logical thinking' as we would define it from up here in 'polyton. It is a serious error to assume they will now. I for one am very glad that warrior screen is there, and I don't fear them becoming domestic giants, because they show absolutely no sense of the means.

I'm actually starting to get a bit suspicious of what's going on here. I refuse to believe that no one as CDG said "excuse me? Has anyone realized that the settler is heading to "Death by corruption?" And not one of them has gone "Hmm... all this jungle. We could use a few more workers, couldn't we?"

Are there not skilled players on that team? I thought I saw a few 'poly posters over in Civ3 general that were Elucidian. They didn't seem THIS dumb. Something damn odd is going on here.

Point Two: I find myself agreeing with Trip that the window between Republic and Feudalism could be exceedingly small to non-existent. Perhaps we could begin preparations a bit sooner, and plan for "First blood" right when we come out of Anarchy, rather than "First march." I suppose if we had roads all the way down to them, this would make things a bit safer.... but if anyone decides to skip government research (possibly unwise, but hey, see above) and go straight for the Medieval, we could very well end up seeing Pikes.


Throwing in Point Three: I've raised this notion before on more than one occasion and no one's really grabbed onto it. I'm going to try again now. There must be a way for the FAM boys to discreetly let CDG know we support any southward ambitions they would have, and that we would be willing to assure their safety northward (a lie, but a good one) in some fashion. CDG is erratic- we really don't have that much to lose by attempting such a manuever, because we have absolutely no idea what they are likely to do in any given situation ANYHOW!

	21-05-2003 08:15									#38
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don't have time to post much here tonight before I go to bed, but this needs to be thought out thourghly (sp).

* E_T yawns and starts to nod off.

I'll try to have some of the build plans up soon. I'm starting to tweek for things like different cities using the Game tile at different times, etc. but it takes time to figure what city is doing what...

E_T

	21-05-2003 10:26									#39
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First off, thanks BigFree for the diplomatic recap. It makes a lot of sense (to me).

Second, all this talk of The Republic just makes wish we were researching Philosophy ourselves. The ability to change to that government is just too powerful to put in another team's hands. Who is researching Philosophy for us, anyway? CDG?! Sigh. Attacking them might be bad, especially if they delay in their research, which they're probably doing.


Dominae

	21-05-2003 10:43									#40
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Theseus - I had thought of leaving out NMs as well, meaning we can fight anytime with very few downsides. This would require careful troop placement though, to avoid a bloodbath since we won't have the 3 defence units, only 2 defence.

Can this be done with the terrain that is around?

	21-05-2003 11:03									#41
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Philosophy is a speed bump on the way to Republic after Code of Laws. If we do not have it, we get it from somewhere else, or do it ourselves.

We can have Republic on our own in 55 turns. That is after HBRiding. The Republic branch is 44. Construction, Currency and Polytheism are 48. Quite tradable.

	21-05-2003 11:09									#42
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Also, without us doing one of Construction, Currency or Polytheism, the progress of our continent into the middle ages is slowed. That means that CDG is kept away from their only salvation, pikes, until well after their date with the undertakers. Interestingly, we can also amass some gold for sword upgrades and selective rushing after Republic.

	21-05-2003 11:10									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Throwing in Point Three: I've raised this notion before on more than one occasion and no one's really grabbed onto it. I'm going to try again now. There must be a way for the FAM boys to discreetly let CDG know we support any southward ambitions they would have, and that we would be willing to assure their safety northward (a lie, but a good one) in some fashion. CDG is erratic- we really don't have that much to lose by attempting such a manuever, because we have absolutely no idea what they are likely to do in any given situation ANYHOW!

Good idea but in practice I think it is flawed. Why? Let's see, we tell them we have no inconvenience in them grabbing very good land in the south expaning into the largest empire in the continent. Too suspicious if you ask me. Then again, if they are "really" stupid they might buy it, I wouldn't.

Such a thing should be brought up in a chat, talking live gives much more opportunities for sublime brainwashing

	21-05-2003 12:14									#44
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NP Dom.

Trip and F-P:
The window between us reciveing Republic and CDG recieving Feudalisim is a wide one. Let me tell you why:

• CDG cannot research for diddly; they have crap land and crap city placement. Unless they had already been halfway or more towards Mathematics, I highly doubt they'll have it and Philosophy 25 tuns from now.
  
  
• CDG has nothing of value to trade for Technology; they cannot buy Techs. They are not set-up for it.
  
  
• When GCA gets to the Middle Ages, it will be after we have researched The Republic and possibly even after we have reached it ourselves.
  
  
• CFC doesn't want to trade with CDG or GCA.
  
  
• CDG's only viable trading partner after we aquire Philosophy from them is GCA.
  
  
• GCA knows that CDG will get a free tech and may be willing to trade the techs that CDG needs to get to the next Age, but I doubt that GCA will do so out of fear of a 'back-stab'; This is also considering that CDG won't have already attacked GCA by this time. Also consider that GCA will be far ahead of CDG at this time so as to rule out most trades.
  
  
• CDG has to aquire Currency(16), Constuction(20), CoL(10), CB(2), Mysticism(4), Polythesism(12), & HBR(5) before they can move on to the next Age. They will get CB from us for cash. They may get Mysticism(4) and Polythesim(12) from GCA for Mathematics(8) and Philosophy(8) but that is not a fair trade for GCA and we know how GCA can be (that would favor CDG by 4 points.) Let's just say that they get that deal anyways for arguments sake.
  
  That would mean that CDG would then have to get a total of 96 research points before they can advance to the next age. ~25 turns from now this will be their task.
  
  GCA is working towards Monarchy, so CDG gets no help there. Maybe afterwards, if CDG hasn't attacked GCA by then, then GCA can go for either Currency, Construction, or CoL. A total of 46 research points.
  
  While GCA is researching Monarchy CDG will likely be able to knock out 18 research points(~24 turns; again I'm being generous here), leaving them a total of 78 to get to the next Age.
  
  So 46 is what GCA needs and 78 is what CDG needs. How is CDG going to have anything to trade to GCA if GCA is so far ahead of them. The only chance CDG has is to then research a "biggie" and then trade it for lots of smaller techs. Lets say CDG goes for Construction next. It will take them ~40 turns for it because of their piss poor economy, but let's cut that down to 28 for sake of argument.
  
  So now CDG has only 58 (78-20) research points left to get. So they trade Construction(20) to GCA for, lets say 20 research points worth of tech(or so) from GCA. The CDG needs 38 and GCA needs 10 because during that time that CDG researched Construction, GCA researched Currency.
  
  So now CDG needs 38 and GCA needs 10. How many turns have gone by now since the begining? 77 turns have past and niether of them are in the Middle ages. GCA sill needs ~10 turns to get there and since CDG is still so far away, they have nothing left to research that GCA hasn't already done. So CDG cannot hope to possibly trade anything to GCA for those techs.
  
  Our window is rather large from when we aquire The Republic (~60-65 turns) to when even GCA will graduate to the Middle Ages (~90 turns). And believe you me, GCA will not help CDG reach that age anytime soon since CDG has nothing to offer for it.
  

So, gentlemen, our "window" is ~25 turns at the very least, if you give every consideration to CDG in their ability to take what they have from their current situation and make good on it.

What's more likely is that our "window" is much larger. Something like 50-60 turns.





Main argument over; now some future stuff.

If CDG hasn't attacked GCA by 50-90 turns from now (first I have a heart attack ); then CDG will not be able to do it once GCA gets to Feudalism. Then GCA will likely want to get to Chivaly to dipatch of CDG.

	21-05-2003 21:29									#45
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I think you're underestimating CDG's research potential, and CFC's impact here. Just because CFC has been having slight problems with GCA doesn't mean you should completely discount them. And CDG would have a higher research ability than us if they had the same number of cities and improvements. They have a river next to their capital. We don't.

Next, as I've mentioned after this tech tier, CDG, GCA and us will all be at equal tech levels (who knows about CFC). There will be 3 techs left to get to the Medieval Age. We will have Code of Laws to research, so that's one of them. Then we have Republic. GCA will research Monarchy, which will probably take them slightly longer than us doing CoL. CDG will have nothing to research. You really don't think that they won't get the last 2 techs done while we're doing CoL + Republic? We will have 2 techs to research, and there will be 3 techs between the two of them left (one of which, Monarchy, isn't even needed to get to the next age). 30 turns from the end of this tech deal GCA will have Monarchy and be well into Currency, CDG will be done with or almost done with Construction, and we will be about halfway into Republic.

Where is this 60 turn window you're talking about?

	21-05-2003 22:02									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I think you're underestimating CDG's research potential, and CFC's impact here. Just because CFC has been having slight problems with GCA doesn't mean you should completely discount them. And CDG would have a higher research ability than us if they had the same number of cities and improvements. They have a river next to their capital. We don't.

Their capital is not going to be saving their day forever. The fact that they would be doing better now if playing differently sounds irrelevant to me.

quote: Next, as I've mentioned after this tech tier, CDG, GCA and us will all be at equal tech levels (who knows about CFC). There will be 3 techs left to get to the Medieval Age. We will have Code of Laws to research, so that's one of them. Then we have Republic. GCA will research Monarchy, which will probably take them slightly longer than us doing CoL. CDG will have nothing to research.

Underlined boldface added...

Beg your pardon? Monarchy (cost 24) slightly longer than CoL (cost 10)??? If at least twice as longer is "slightly", then yes... but it's not, so the rest of your reasoning is based upon a false assumption. Keep in mind that GCA is not industrious, so their rate of building terrain improvements is halved compared to ours (though they may have better terrain to start with, right).

Also, for CDG to research the "other" missing tech fast enough, they would have to research at high science rate... gathering little gold for upgrades... being unable to properly use their Feudalism.

quote: Where is this 60 turn window you're talking about?

This is a bit unfair... BigFree said that based upon his analysis, there should be a window of about ~25 turns, which I more or less agree with. And that is on condition that CDG does NOT attack GCA, that CDG will research at FULL or almost full speed, that nobody researches Literature etc. etc. If at least one of these conditions is not fulfilled, the window may extend big time.

	22-05-2003 14:29									#47
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The same situation, the same (or similar) figures, yet two very different conclusions.

Just a thought here - nye or anyone else who has run through the scenario ismluations of our future - did you have a civ in CDG's location, and if so, what tech level did they manage over time?

	22-05-2003 16:13									#48
	Put an end to popups!

Here's an idea: the Scientific advisor has an opinion whether we're less, equally or more advanced than a particular other civ, right? Maybe we can use this information (and run some simulations) to actually discover the tech status of CDG.

	22-05-2003 17:20									#49
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The scientific advisor only gives a general opinon of "Us vs. The World" and it's horridly skewed to the point of being useless. You can have 10 more techs than the other guy, but if you don't have all the tier one techs (say you skipped warrior code) and he has all the tier one techs and only one tech beyond that, the scientific advisor will call YOU backward.

Last night I was playing a game with Egypt (MP,) and was a Republic that understood Construction, but because I hadn't bothered with Warrior Code (who needs archers or horsemen when you have flat land and your chariots?) I showed up as "Backward" comapared to him.... he had all the first tiers, but his most advanced tech beyond that was mathematics.

Scientific advisor?

	22-05-2003 17:35									#50
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You're right. Let's fire that guy.

	26-05-2003 14:20									#51
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quote: Alright... as the debate has almost ceased regarding our "grand plan", I believe it's time to precise it and hopefully adopt in a poll as our "official" strategy for the next couple of dozens of turns. I am hereby including a revised version - comment on it, please (especially: are you missing anything important in it? any aspect not addressed properly?). If there are no major objections raised or changes requested, I shall prepare the AltSp draft for voting. changes and additions in blue

The Cornerstones Of Our Strategy In The ISDG


1. The First War

Sooner or later, we are bound to fight our Southern neighbour. Inevitable primarily because of the geography of our landmass. Our "natural" share of the weirdly shaped landmass is not big enough to allow winning the game peacefully. As CDG (or anyone conquering them) is our only immediate neighbour, chances of avoiding any and all conflicts with them are virtually nil – sooner or later, we will have to fight for more land. Our long-term strategy shall thus be centered around this inevitable „First War“ – everything or almost everything we are or will be doing should actually be part of the grand preparation for it.


2. Fighting on OUR terms

The First War shall be the point of break for us in this game. Either we win, destroy our neighbour, grab his land as far as Goatville, and keep our hopes of winning this game later on, or we die fighting, losing the game. Considering the importance of The First War, we have to do anything and everything possible to ensure we win it. Thus, the timing, the ground, and the weapons shall be preferrably of our choice. Once we attack, there shall be no doubts about us winning.

As long as the war is not imminent or planned to start, we shall maintain a standing army capable of delaying reasonably "expectable" CDG attacks for 10 turns, that would be spent switching our economy from growth/expansion-oriented to fully war-oriented. Preferrably, the size of such an army shall be modest enough to save us from extensive gold upkeep (considering our worker force needs, as a rule of thumb: 2 military units per every city, most units deployed defensively along our "CDG frontline", reserves kept behind the line, covering the rear against surprise seaborne invasions at the same time). Once we decide our growth phase is over and the date of the attack set, our economy shall focus on a massive military buildup, aiming at assembling a force as strong and numerous as possible to be ready at the outbreak of the war.

On the diplomatic front, our goal shall be to ensure CDG does not attack us before we want them to, leaving us free to accomplish our growth/economic goals first. Ideally, we shall lull them into believing our only plan is to peacefully build and "flourish" in the God forgotten piece of crappy land we‘re given for starters. One of the key goals shall be making GCA well aware of the threat CDG presents to the region and to them specifically. We shall do our best to prevent our international reputation suffering too much once we attack and we shall do our best to ensure we will be fighting just one enemy with no allies. This shall be achieved through being reliable and easy to deal with trading partners for all the teams that are not targets of The First War.

Our intelligence office shall make gathering/analyzing information about CDG its topmost priority, reporting as frequently as possible.


3. Winning through economic superiority

Our starting location did/does not allow for a quick, early military buildup, followed by a surprise rush. In addition, our early UU is less than optimal for winning wars - it's better suited for not losing wars. Thus, our only reasonable choice is to win the war by overwhelming military superiority, achieved through the economic superiority. We shall outnumber our enemy to such an extent that they will be unable to hold their ground. Technical superiority would be welcome, but should not be necessary. If the initial invasion fails to knock the enemy down immediately, we shall resort to the war of attrition, first crippling the economy of our enemy by massive pillaging and then wearing its thinning military down.


4. Strong war-oriented economy first, War next

Empire extent goal

Considering the relative advantage of our starting location (compared to that of CDG) and our double-granary-based expansion potential, we shall be able to build a sizeable empire faster than our enemy. This empire shall be of a clearly defined extent, including 11 cities in the area S/SE of the Northern mountains and desert, NW of Tripoli, and NE of the diagonal NW-SE line right in the middle between Apolyton and Elucidium - the line also known as the 6-tile "permanent" settlement line. Our expansion shall be aimed at securing strategic resources first (horse city), establishing a firm border against CDG next, and grabbing/back-filling all the remaining land on our side of the line the rest last.

Jungle clearing

As most of our potential territory NE of the line is jungle, we shall clear that jungle to make the best use of the land - without the jungle being cleared and resulting grassland improved, our cities would be next to useless. In order to clear the vast jungle, we shall build a strong workforce of workers dedicated to this task as fast as possible, prioritizing their production early on.

Production priorities

Until we start building up for The First War, we shall balance our production between workers ensuring timely clearing of the jungle (roughly two workers per every city), military units ensuring a reasonable level of safety against surprise enemy attacks (roughly 2 military units per every city of ours), and settlers ensuring our empire growth – in this order. As a special priority, we shall build at least one galley that will start searching for other teams beyond those we already have a contact with.

As The First War shall be fought no later than with the arrival of Knights (see later on), shortly after we switch our government to Republic we shall assume our cities will not grow beyond pop 6 (no aqueducts), often not even beyond pop 4 (no temples at 0% lux under Republic). Thus, our spacing shall be generally quite tight (3-tile, or city-tile-tile-city) and we shall build no city improvements, but barracks and granaries - other improvements (temples) to be built only in rare, well defined cases, in cities intended to become high(er)-pop production powerhouses.

In case our intelligence reports show CDG increasing their efficiency as fas as clearing their jungle and founding new cities go, or otherwise change the course they have followed so far, we shall reconsider the timing and possibly strike earlier, until their economy gets up and running.

Our mantra: Efficiency

As mentioned before, our starting location is mediocre at best... to keep our hope of eventually winning the game, we will have to squeeze every single food, shield, and commerce out of the land we have at our disposal. Thus, we shall focus on tight management of all our resources – workers, labourers, population, city improvements, and military. Every single worker action, every single city improvement shall have its reason and justification.

Science/Research

The First War will trigger our GA. In order to not waste it, we shall try hard to be under Republic by that time, so our primary research goal is to gain the knowledge of The Republic and successfully switch our government to it prior to attacking our enemy. Other than that, we shall adapt our research strategy considering the tentative timing of The First War (for an earlier, Swordsmen-based war, we shall aim for 0% research and hoarding upgrade gold once under Republic... for a later, Knight-based war, we shall aim for getting to Chivalry ASAP).

Our tech trading policy shall be solely focused on getting to Republic ASAP, while delaying others from getting to medieval times and particularly Feudalism ALAP.


5. Timing

Our timing shall be dictated mostly by our transition to Republic. Once we have our 11-city empire in place and government changed to Republic, we shall strike as soon as possible. Tentative schedule is around turns 120-125 (170BC-70BC). As mentioned before, this may be adjusted to an earlier date if CDG starts to efficiently expand their empire or attacks GCA.

	26-05-2003 15:07									#52
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Good job Consuls.

Let's vote on it!

	27-05-2003 00:11									#53
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Nice one. I support it.

	27-05-2003 01:45									#54
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Repeating myself here:

Our "attack" on CDG should only occur after a successful defense against them. I believe we can goad them into attacking us. This will only be to our advantange, as our counter-attack will surely destroy them.

This point is certainly debatable, which is why it has not been debated more. Offensives are very difficult in MP. Would it not be better to defend, then "offend"?


Dominae

	27-05-2003 02:17									#55
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Repeating myself here: Our "attack" on CDG should only occur after a successful defense against them. I believe we can goad them into attacking us. This will only be to our advantange, as our counter-attack will surely destroy them. This point is certainly debatable, which is why it has not been debated more. Offensives are very difficult in MP. Would it not be better to defend, then "offend"? Dominae

Sure we can rry, but contolling another team is not something we should count on or even plan for.

What we can control is our own build up and eventual attack of CDG when we have reached Republic. If we "goad" CDG into attacking us earlier, we stand to lose out to a Despotic GA when we'd rather have a Republic GA. Lets have this "Take CDG out of the game" War on our terms.

	27-05-2003 02:22									#56
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How likely is it that a team would launch an attack without a clear strength advantage?

Would we be wise to allow ourselves to get into a position where CDG were strong to our weak?

	27-05-2003 02:42									#57
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither How likely is it that a team would launch an attack without a clear strength advantage?

Good point. Let's say we look too powerful to CDG. What's their other option? Bingo, GCA. Now we're letting other teams do our fighting for us. Or, let's say GCA is also too strong, who will CDG attack then? No one? Doubtful. Like a cornered dog they'll lash out eventually, and we'll be ready. Defensively (then offensively).

quote: Would we be wise to allow ourselves to get into a position where CDG were strong to our weak?

Of course not, which is why I did not propose we allow this to happen.


Dominae

	27-05-2003 02:47									#58
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree What we can control is our own build up and eventual attack of CDG when we have reached Republic. If we "goad" CDG into attacking us earlier, we stand to lose out to a Despotic GA when we'd rather have a Republic GA.

Which is why we should goad them into attacking us after we get The Republic.

"Controlling" is too strong a word. We could simply give them a very good reason for attacking us. We're half-expecting them to attack either us or GCA eventually. Either way we should be preparing ourselves for a defense.

quote: Lets have this "Take CDG out of the game" War on our terms.

That's exactly what I'm proposing.

Let me say this again:

1. Immortals attack and defend well.
2. Numidian Mercs do not attack well, period.

UU-wise, we're better off taking out their units defensively.


Dominae

	27-05-2003 03:24									#59
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hi ,

a couple sea units might be great for dropping some units in the back , .....

yes offense is still the best defense

we should hit them hard with all what we got

have a nice day

at last we are talking , at last no more nice team poly

	28-05-2003 15:20									#60
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

* bump *

Any more comments?

If not, I shall put an official adoption poll up tomorrow.