20-05-2003 07:31									#1
	Can anyone win faster then Egypt? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I have been trying a few games with Egypt and the victory time is amazing. About 25 minutes to win a wonder victory. Just barely entered the gunpowder age and game over. I mean 2 wonders per city and 25 % less cost and you get them one age earlier than anyone else. Three cities + 5 wonders = Victory!

I just finished my third game testing this. In this game there was only a brief resistance. As soon as the wonder timmer started, my opponent attacked with everything he had, he went after my least defended city which had two wonders (good AI). I had been stock piling free Terra Cotta infantry all game so I had a sizable army but he did manage to get by and take the city. But I had so many resources because age advancement is not crucial to winning with wonders. I started pumping out troops and retook the city and the wonders quickly. The wonder timmer started again and soon - Victory - 26 minutes. Would have been quicker if I had set up my defenses a little better.

It seems that the Egyptains can easily win very early in the game before anyone can mount too much of an offense. People will have to go after Egypt quickly in any game vs them!

I'd like to hear other people's thoughts / impressions on Egypt.

	20-05-2003 07:33									#2
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i turn of wonder victory because of that fact, but if you play with skilled enemies, they wont let you get a third so easily

	20-05-2003 10:51									#3
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everyone gang on on eggies once they start a wonder. Plus between a harsh russia with its pain-in-the-ass attrition, spies and cav, and a sweet egypt cities with 2 wonders, guess whose gonna be raided ?

	20-05-2003 16:12									#4
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yes but by the time you have spies and enough calvary to mount a raid, Egypt has already won. Thats the thing they can win VERY early in the game before you even get your military going or develop spies. At most they will only have to defend theor territory briefly in the last minutes before they win.

	20-05-2003 16:22									#5
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AAMOI, at what difficulty level are you playing?

	20-05-2003 16:55									#6
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The thing with the wonder victory is that you have to age advance at least two times in order for enough wonders to be available to get 8 wonder points. And while wonders may be cheap for the Egyptians, age advances are not. Plus consider that to make these age advances you also have to research a whole bunch of library techs, which also are not cheap. So yes the Egyptian player can win fast, but they will have to devote almost all their resources to library research and wonder building. Leaving them very, very vulnerable. . .

	20-05-2003 18:01									#7
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provided you're not in a free-for-all, I don't think anyone aside from the AI is going to just let you have a wonder victory.

	20-05-2003 18:37									#8
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I think this is largly a matter of people being new to the game. Among experienced players Egypt is a known quantity. The secret is not waiting until they trip the timer to start worrying about them. Remember that every time you see a wonder go up you know that Egypt just spent a bag of resources on it instead of troops. Wait until he builds an expensive wonder back-to-back with an age upgrade then attack. His army should be understaffed. Also, attack him early. Wonders mean lots of civilians working in close quarters. Raiding units like horse archers LOOOOVVVEEE that.

	20-05-2003 22:40									#9
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the only things that wonders are good for are their bonuses...
i turn that stuff off (in the demo atleast)

	20-05-2003 23:31									#10
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quote: Originally posted by bhg_paul I think this is largly a matter of people being new to the game. Among experienced players Egypt is a known quantity. The secret is not waiting until they trip the timer to start worrying about them. Remember that every time you see a wonder go up you know that Egypt just spent a bag of resources on it instead of troops. Wait until he builds an expensive wonder back-to-back with an age upgrade then attack. His army should be understaffed. Also, attack him early. Wonders mean lots of civilians working in close quarters. Raiding units like horse archers LOOOOVVVEEE that.

See thats all I'm saying, any game vs Egypt you MUST go after them ASAP. As for troops, as I mentioned the key to this is getting the Terra Cotta Wonder, that will provide you with the bulk of your troops to defend the short amount of time until you win. Of course you will supplement this with barracks troops if you can but I would not say Egypt will be tottally defenseless even after spending most resources on wonders / advancements. I have never had trouble getting plenty of resources for wonders, advancements, buildings and some supplimental troops with the 7 farms and +2 wealth even with only 3 cities.

Also, remember Egpyt gets wonders an age early so there are more than enough to win without advancing more then one or two ages. And they are 25% cheaper.

Of course this has only been what I have seen in the demo vs 1 or 2 computer opponents on Moderate difficulty so I am sure Paul is right that more time spent with the full game vs real players will maybe bring new tactics to light.

Just to clarify, I was not intending to "bash" the game or yell about not being balanced or anything. I can't wait to get out of work today to go buy the full game. I just like discussing tactics and stuff.

	21-05-2003 00:31									#11
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No worries. I didn't read your post as a bash. I'm always happy to share strat insights.

I don't think the "you have to attack Egypt" is a phenom unique to them. As with just about any game, allowing your opponent to execute his/her optimal strategy is often a tough road to follow. Allowing the Mongols to raid you down or allowing the Romans to invade you with hordes of uncountered heavy infantry are also examples of the same thing. The trick is to figure out how to disrupt the other guy's strat while sticking to your own.

	21-05-2003 01:34									#12
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Very true. I just think Egypt's strategy can be completed much sooner then others. But enough of Egypt, I'm off to the store to buy the game and for my first game I can't wait to try out the Chinesse. I'm anxious to see how the "auto-citizen building" ability works!

	21-05-2003 01:56									#13
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quote: Originally posted by stesergio Very true. I just think Egypt's strategy can be completed much sooner then others. But enough of Egypt, I'm off to the store to buy the game and for my first game I can't wait to try out the Chinesse. I'm anxious to see how the "auto-citizen building" ability works!

very awesomely, if you got the food.

	21-05-2003 02:22									#14
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Can you explain quickly how it works. If I have the food do the citizens just "create" themselves? What if I am saving up my food for an advancement or wonder or something and I don't want to spend it on citizens right now?

	21-05-2003 02:26									#15
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No..."auto-citizen building" is misleading. It's just that the Chinese citizens have 0 wait time for production. The "if you have the food" refers to obviously if you aren't making citizens, you aren't using the ability.

	21-05-2003 02:35									#16
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quote: Originally posted by bhg_paul No..."auto-citizen building" is misleading. It's just that the Chinese citizens have 0 wait time for production. The "if you have the food" refers to obviously if you aren't making citizens, you aren't using the ability.

well, i was referring to the fact that each citizen costs more food than the last, so when you start a wonder, you set a city to rally point to the wonder and instantly pop out 20 citizens to work it, if you have enough of the food resource to build them

	21-05-2003 09:29									#17
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Also, i doubt the egyptions will be able to build *every* wonder before you can get to the age. If you want to screw with an egyption player, build whichever wonder he *isn't* building as soon as you hit the right age. This will delay his wonder-victory. Also like said above, just raid them with some horse archers, the wonders are notorius for being built outside of TC range, simply because they are so big and probably built in a city that is already developed. 3 horse archers = wonder construction stopped and many dead villies No need to make a huge assult, just a raid or 2.

	21-05-2003 16:37									#18
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They don't need to build *every* wonder, the point is that since they can access wonders and age earlier then everyone else and they only need about 5 to win a standard game they will always have enough to choose from plus they are cheaper for Egypt so trying to beat them by building wonders before they do is going to take a lot more away from you then from them.

As for horse raiders, this is the best idea I have seen yet and I am sure it would be annoying and slow down their progress but, hey so they pop out some more citizens and get right back to work. Food is not a problem for egypt with 7 farms and a granary in each city. Also I am not suggesting that egypt can allow itself to be tottaly defenseless. I always go for the Terra Cotta wonder as soon as I can (which is before anyone else can even think about it), and that provides a good defense which I supplement from the barracks as necessary. So you raiders who "eat up" citizens have to get past my army first which I am just building up and building up.

You can't stop them you can only hope to contain them

Note: I'm not suggesting Egypt is unbeatable or anything crazy like that I just think they have the best chance of winning in the shortest amount of time and opponents will be forced to go on the offensive ASAP vs them.

	21-05-2003 21:08									#19
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quote: Originally posted by stesergio They don't need to build *every* wonder, the point is that since they can access wonders and age earlier then everyone else and they only need about 5 to win a standard game they will always have enough to choose from plus they are cheaper for Egypt so trying to beat them by building wonders before they do is going to take a lot more away from you then from them.

I don't think you understand how the wonder victory works. If wonder victory is set to 8 points, that means that in order to win a wonder victory you must have 8 wonder points ABOVE the closest enemy. So if your egyption player is going for a wonder victory and you build a 2 pont wonder, he now needs 10 total to win insted of 8.

	21-05-2003 21:14									#20
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In the "if my opponent doesn't bother to counter what I do" department, I'd say that Japan probably has the fastest win.

	21-05-2003 21:18									#21
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The early wonders aren't worth all that many points and unless you let Egypt build ALL of them they aren't goint to win all that fast. Besides, to build ALL of the wonders means no real econ spent on an army. An Egypt that goes on a mad wonder-building spree is likely to get swamped early. Vs accomplished players I use the Egyptian power to make damn sure I get the few key wonders I want - not to build a ton of them.

	22-05-2003 01:22									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Bridger I don't think you understand how the wonder victory works. If wonder victory is set to 8 points, that means that in order to win a wonder victory you must have 8 wonder points ABOVE the closest enemy. So if your egyption player is going for a wonder victory and you build a 2 pont wonder, he now needs 10 total to win insted of 8.

You're right I did not understand that - thank you. Until now, I have only played the demo so no Multi Player and no manual.

But I just got home from the store and I am typing with one hand and opening the box with the other!!!!! Can't wait to try out the other races!!