22-05-2003 00:34									#31
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Remember that CDG needs units to cover their southern border with GCA. So just because we do not see their units does not mean they're not there. I suspect also that CDG is using units for MP, perhaps up to the full complement of 2 for Despotism.

But this is not bad news. Since CDG has to defend two borders instead, we should always have a unit advantage over them, given that our economy is equivalent to better (much better, actually).


Dominae

	22-05-2003 00:38									#32
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We know CDG has two Warriors off to the north-west (one is guarding the chokepoint, the other is scouting CFC land). We know that CDG has 1/2 Warriors floating around their capital (we saw them protecting the Worker). We know CDG has an Immortal and a Spearman in their capital. We know CDG has a Warrior on our iron. I'm making educated guesses that CDG has a unit south of GCA scouting, a unit in each of their other cities as guards, and that they have 2 Workers.

That's a lot to support with 3 cities.

	22-05-2003 00:54									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon I would think the evidence for their units actually suggests they have quite few? We've seen 2 warriors, and 1 spear/immortal. Their military is average compared to ours- and doesn't the "strength ratio" favor Immortals to Numidians? What I mean is- don't they need less Immortals to "match" our strength in Numidians? It seems to me that they may have quite few units?

Your own post indicates that they could indeed have less units than us because of the fact in order for them to be "average" us, the Immortal is 'worth more' than a NM according to BFM's calculations, thus they would have to have less Immortals than we would have to have NM's.

Also, the "average" rating, as BFM has pointed out, is a very large window, in terms of percentages (45). That's a lot of units that can be counted or miscounted.

	22-05-2003 01:00									#34
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Trip's count is right- they DO have a decent number of units. His count in that post is 13-14, and if they're doing two-per-city for additional defense/police duty, that's 16-17. Add in the barracks, and figure they may have an extra unit or two in the southern border guard, and maybe one we just don't know about somewhere, and they're approaching 9 or 10 GPT maintenance. That's pretty brutal this early in the game.

Their research might well be QUITE slow indeed. We should plan on getting philosophy on our own, methinks.

	22-05-2003 01:23									#35
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What in the blazes are you talking about?

Where are you getting these number's from? There's no way in hell that CDG has 13-14 units.

	22-05-2003 01:38									#36
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Read Trip's post and count 'em up. He's right. They have at least 13-14, possibly a bit more.

	22-05-2003 02:08									#37
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Two things:

• I'm not done testing yet. Very probably an Immortal is worth more than a NM, but I'll make sure soon. I can then also calculate the ratio.
  
• Should we keep our 'extra' units outside our cities somewhere? If CDG scouts us out (they might even cheat on that, scouting out a city and then reloading the game), they can see our units in the cities. A problem would be that we'd have to move these units to outside all city radii.
  

	22-05-2003 02:11									#38
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Should we keep our 'extra' units outside our cities somewhere? If CDG scouts us out (they might even cheat on that, scouting out a city and then reloading the game), they can see our units in the cities.

It is futile to play under the assumption that CDG is cheating, without resorting to cheating ourselves. The general consensus here is to assume all teams are not cheating, since they promised not to when the game began. If CDG cheats, they'll win, we'll lose, and that's that.


Dominae

	22-05-2003 02:42									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Read Trip's post and count 'em up. He's right. They have at least 13-14, possibly a bit more.

I'm counting, but not like he is.


This is what we KNOW:

1 warrior near our Iron

2 warriors near the choke point

1 warrior & 1 settler heading to the choke point

1 worker near gold hill

1 spear and one Immortal in Capitol

Summary: 4 Warriors, 1 Immortal, 1 spear,1 Worker, 1 settler; 8 units

What we GUESS:

1 spear/warrior in Goattown

1 spear/warrior in Zarig

Let's say the have 2 in each of these cities (unlikely), but that would still mean only 12 units and not 13-14.

It's more like 10 possibly 11.

	22-05-2003 03:21									#40
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Plus the 2 Warriors which we saw about 10 turns ago which you've conveniently ignored.

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...911#post1967911

Plus whatever they might have scouting beneath GCA (it's not as though GCA closed off the south before CDG could have slipped a unit through).

Add to that another possible unit from Elucidium after they built the Settler. That's 15. Which is the count I have in my sim (minus the two Warriors which I've always disbanded).

	22-05-2003 03:27									#41
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Trip, those two warriors could be the same ones we see now. One with the Settler and one is now an Immortal.

Scouting in GCA, not likely....

I still say 12 units max.

	22-05-2003 03:28									#42
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12 units max just like CDG will attack GCA?

You need to keep more of an open mind and stop telling others to do so.

	22-05-2003 03:30									#43
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Trip you are over-estimating; I'm simply using what I 'see' to make my estimates.

	22-05-2003 06:17									#44
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Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Let's keep smiles on our faces, please.

	22-05-2003 06:39									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Let's keep smiles on our faces, please.

E_T, the MoI Canidate for Apolyton's Future

	22-05-2003 06:43									#46
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Should we keep our 'extra' units outside our cities somewhere? If CDG scouts us out (they might even cheat on that, scouting out a city and then reloading the game), they can see our units in the cities. A problem would be that we'd have to move these units to outside all city radii.

I regulary do this in my PBEM's.
Not in case of cheating...but just in case they do investigate a city.

	22-05-2003 07:02									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Let's keep smiles on our faces, please.

Panzer32, the MoI candidate for all the s out there in Apolytonland

	22-05-2003 09:29									#48
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I believe in assuming the reasonable worst.

Support 4-5 units per town in the early game? No problem. Does that short direct research? Sure, but there are other strategies.

I don't always agree with Trip, but I think we've learned some MP / team MP lessons that bear attention: this ain't SP, expect it to be uglier than you expect.

He's slightly psycho, but for what it's worth, I pay close attention to F-P's cautions.



(no, I'm serious)



(no, really, I'm serious)



[sorry, that last bit was an Eddie Izzard reference, couldn't help it]








(no, I'm serious... I really am, Immortals are not to be f*cked around with)

	22-05-2003 09:44									#49
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Actions:
CB resent to CDG.

N1 'MerZenary' skips turn
W2 'BigFree' moves 8 (N)
W4 'Theseus' skips turn
W5 'BFW' fortified
W6 'Hagbart' fortified
W7 'WhiteBandit' skips turn
W8 'not_panag' fortifies
W3 'Alva' fortifies
'Settler II' aka Worker Rimmer builds Tripoli
W9 'X' moves 7 (NW)
N2 'Mao' skips turn

Economy:
Apolyton building merc
Mingapulco building barracks.
Banatopia building granary.
Incensity building archer; shall be switched to Barracks if Morris leaves the iron hill peacefully.
Tripoli begins walls

WF:
Apolyton: 4, 5, 13
Mingapulco: 3. 10
Bananatopia: 2, 9
Incensity: 5
Tripoli: 2

Workers
Worker1 'Dan' building mine (2)
Worker2 'Monkee' chopping (4)
Worker3 'panag' building road (1)
Worker4 'EVC' building road (2)

E_T: I had to resolve 2 cities working the same improved tile. I think I got it right. Bananatopia did not need the extra shield (for this turn only). Mingapulco does not need it after this turn, due to growth the next turn. Here's hoping.

/Addit: Building Tripoli skipped us another turn ahead on MM.

Last edited by notyoueither on 22-05-2003 at 10:02

	22-05-2003 10:32									#51
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Unit-counting CDG's forces should be the responsibility of our Ministry of Information. What happened to that?


Dominae

	22-05-2003 10:40									#52
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You mean Intelligence, right?

OliverFA has been absent for some time. BFM is working on force comparison equations.

The debate earlier seems to revlove more around assumptions of what we have not seen, rather than of what we have.

	22-05-2003 11:09									#53
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You mean Intelligence, right?

Sure.

quote: OliverFA has been absent for some time. BFM is working on force comparison equations.

Right. So we currently do not have an official body which keeps us up-to-date on all the important info we either know or could infer? If not, we need one. Could we assign a temporary replacement for OliverFA?

quote: The debate earlier seems to revlove more around assumptions of what we have not seen, rather than of what we have.

Which is why we need the Ministry of Intelligence, which is responsible for both.


Dominae

	22-05-2003 12:32									#54
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Let's just ask GCA how many units CDG has south of their territory. We can trade it for some information about the number of units CDG has in our area. Together, we can better count their army size.

Why is Tripoli building Walls?

	22-05-2003 12:36									#55
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Why is Tripoli building Walls?

To wail against?

... it is a frontier town of great importance. If we see a couple of immortals moving north... oh, damn... we won't be able to finish them in time. Oh, well.

Honestly? Because i haven't been told to build something else.

	22-05-2003 12:58									#56
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Except for Morris, I don't see a threat, really. I'd expect a possible CDG attack to head for the Mingapulco area. Rushing us means taking out our main production cities, not a newly-found city. And if they want to take out the Iron, they can just send in a pillager.

Tripoli is also built on a hill, right?

	22-05-2003 13:06									#57
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Yes, on a hill.

In case I was not clear, the first build for Tripoli is not set yet. I selected walls. Maybe that should be a marker for 'waiting for a better idea'.

	22-05-2003 13:19									#58
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Ah, OK. I would advise Incensity to build a galley next. Maybe Tripoli can build whatever Incensity was going to build.

	22-05-2003 16:07									#59
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2 Galleys are needed! No more, no less!

Actually, RE: Tripoli, I think that might be a good location for our first temple. Culture-pop gives us Dye within our borders, and more importantly, it allows us to watch for "leak/sneak" around the southern coast of our peninsula. Not saying that the warrior screen wouldn't see it coming, but it would provide us with a bit more monitoring controls. (And hey, we all know Trip needs a lil' religion.)

* Fried-Psitalon runs for the door.

	22-05-2003 16:14									#60
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Did he say "temple" ??