20-05-2003 13:29									#1
	The Colossus Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It's too quiet. Let's get some discussion going.
Do we want to build the Colossus? When? Where?

	20-05-2003 14:00									#2
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AFAIK, everyone in this team wants to build the Colossus, and to build it in Hurricane, but under different conditions.

Most of the team, I gather, would rather start the Colossus after we've launched our offensive against Vox and taken D'Ville or some other town. They make a good point, that dedicating Hurricane to the Colossus for a while means 7 less pikemen.
But are those 7 pikes really needed? Would the construction of these 7 pikes neglect our goals in the long run, while providing little return in the short-middle run (war with Vox)?

We already have 13 vet pikemen, and we'll have 2 more next turn. Once we get rid of the two main Voxian stacks (the SS one and the Arashi/Tempest one), all of these pikes will be freed up and we'll be able to use most of them in our offensive. But Chivalry is coming up, and eventually we'll want to make some upgrades - I assume that we'll want to take D'Ville with pike-medinf stacks, but most of the rest of the job will be done with knights. Pikes will then be useless on the attack because they can't keep up with the knights, and only useful for defending newly-captured towns and our coasts. IMHO we have enough pikes for these jobs.

While we're building units and burning our GA on military, Lego are expanding peacefully. They have plenty of land, they are commercial and industrious and they have the Pyramids. Soon, if we don't act, they may have the Colossus and then trigger their GA. Imagine Lego getting a GA and using the full 20 turns on infrastructure - will we ever be able to catch up?

What is more likely - that we'll really need those extra 7 pikemen, or that we might lose the economical race in the long run to Lego if we allow them to get their GA now?

I think that the war has turned over to our side. Soon, possibly in a matter of two turns (only 7 more successful cat attacks until the Arashi stack goes down to 1HP all), Vox will lose 7 immortals (or even earlier, if Vox decides to step off of the mountains or attack Arashi or Tempest). Then, our catapults will shift to the SS theatre and remove 5 more Voxian immortals. Though it usually pays to be paranoid, I think that we are enough on the safe side now. We must look at farther goals, such as beating Lego in the economical race.

To sum up - let's start the Colossus next turn. We're safe from Vox, who is going to be 7 immortals shorter in two or three turns and short of another 5 immortals in ten turns, maybe less. Let's do ourselves a favor and prevent Lego Land from getting a peaceful GA right now.

Last edited by Shiber on 20-05-2003 at 14:12

	20-05-2003 18:17									#3
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I'd like to get a turn or two of horsemen pumped out of EotS and Hurricane and then switch Hurricane over to the Colossus.

But I really do want that wonder.

-Arrian

	20-05-2003 19:12									#4
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Maybe the Colossus could also be used as a bargaining chip with lego? If they really want it they might be willing to make some concessions if we don't compete for it. This would be particularly good if we think they'll beat us to it anyway.

	20-05-2003 19:21									#5
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That could work... but it would look like blackmail. Actually, it is blackmail.
It would spoil our relationship in the long run.

Let's start building the Colossus now. We can get those two horses out of other cities in time if we ask GoW not to send us Chivalry immediately but to allow us to build some more mounted units for upgrades first.

	20-05-2003 21:14									#6
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I agree with Shiber re: Lego.

But as much as I like the Colossus, I still think we want a turn or two of horsemen out of Hurricane first.

-Arrian

	20-05-2003 21:24									#7
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It's a race for the Colossus, and two turns could mean the difference between getting the Colossus and depriving Lego of a peaceful GA (the next commercial wonder is in the next era IIRC) and giving the GA to Lego, allowing them to open a huge gap between us that will just get wider and wider with time.
I understand Arrian's concerns, but I vote for facing this important issue and starting the Colossus right now.

	20-05-2003 21:34									#8
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Blackmail? I certainly wouldn't see it that way. Agreeing to not go after the Colossus, something that we want, in exchange for the same deal on another wonder, or other concessions seems reasonable to me. but whatever.

	20-05-2003 21:40									#9
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Ohh, I got the impression that we were going to confront them and tell them that we're going to steal their peaceful GA unless they pay us.
Dividing wonders sounds like a good idea, but let's not contact them before we've started the Colossus. If they aren't building it yet, we certainly don't want to give them any ideas that we might beat them to it.

	21-05-2003 02:38									#10
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We're probably not the only ones building wonders- so dividing wonders doesn't seem like a good idea. Telling Lego we're gonna build it also has the risk of them making more effort to complete it.

And I'd also like to see Hurricane cranks out just a few more units-just like WW2- with the pace this war is running, winning will be a matter of outproducing and "out-destroying" the enemy. those few more units could help us end this war quicker, but we definitely need the commerce boost, and more importantly, prevent a peaceful Lego GA.

	21-05-2003 04:03									#11
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I had the same reaction.... it ain't about Pikes, man, it's about FASTMOVERS.

OTOH, how quickly can we build the Colossus? If it's only 6-7 turns, I say we go for it... then pump out Knights.

	21-05-2003 04:32									#12
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It's 7 turns to build the Collosus. We could save a few more food in Hurricane while building it too, as we have a spare 10 shields (30 x 7 = 210).

	21-05-2003 05:31									#13
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It's going to take minimum 4-5 turns just to deal with Vox' troops in our territory, much less those in the mountains SE of D-ville.

THEN, we need to prep for the march north, as well as Inchon and other special forces actions.

I'm sold... build the Colossus NOW. Delaying the later attacks for 200 shields of aggregate production (i.e., not just from Hurricane) is no biggie, maybe 3 turns which we will need for staging time anyway.

Good call, Shiber.

	21-05-2003 05:35									#14
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We won't get it, I'm sure... but it looks like we can take the risk, so why not try it

If we go for it, I would switch right now, even in preproduction if possible to save another turn. We don't seem to need the pikes or horses, we can manage with our other cities (in total, it might delay the war by a turn or so, though). Plus, we need backup, I wouldn't mind switching to e.g. the GLib or the hanging gardens if we would fail (if we can buy Monarchy, of course).

DeepO

	21-05-2003 05:55									#15
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Good point... back-up plan.

Is the Colossus or the GLib the answer to Lego? Let's us go military for a while?

	21-05-2003 12:00									#16
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In a word, no.

We are in the midst of a struggle for survival. Our teams' war aims are not going to be easy to force upon Vox. They are going to fight. How much longer do we want that fight to go on by diverting major production to a wonder?

And what if war breaks out on Bob before we are done with Vox? Then we lose a great opportunity, one which may never come again in the entire game.

Finally, I seem to recall a certain nation of the not too distant past who wanted guns and butter when things seemed to be going well in a war. Too late they realised that they lacked the force to win when they had the opportunity to do so. Their opportunities slipped away. They lost all.

No butter! Guns, guns, guns!

Vox delenda est!

	21-05-2003 18:42									#17
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While I think we can afford to build the Colossus during the war (making use of the GA - how many turns of that do we have left BTW?), I think we ought to wait until we've at least taken out the rather depleted Arashi/Tempest stack. If we have good luck with the RNG (and 7 turns of GA left) then go for the Colossus. If things go badly and we lose several units, then we probably need a few more turns worth offensive units. SO, holding the middle ground quite firmly, I say we wait the one or two more turns to see what taking out the stack costs us, and re-judge out priorities then.

As for backup - what do we do if Lego get the Colossus, GoW get the GL at about the same time? I know buying monarchy isn't urgent (since we can use the GW or Oracle as a place-holder), but wouldn't we rather save money on Monarchy and wait for Theology and Sistine (given that we are a religious civ after all - 80 shield Cathedrals making 6 content people good...)

BTW which is the priority if we are lucky enough to get another leader in the next few turns - Colossus (so cheap is seems a waste to me), GLib (gets my vote, since it is useful and more expensive, shield wise, than the Colossus, which we may get anyway - or would we lose it to GoW in a cascade) or an army (not needed, and given how close we are to chivalry, probably a waste until we can put knights in it).

	21-05-2003 22:03									#18
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I think we should stick to Horsemen in Hurricane.

	21-05-2003 22:46									#19
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From a 'butter' perspective, I think it would be a good idea to start growing Arashi now. It seems to be out of any danger of being taken, and it can be a rather productive city quickly (4 turn Knights beat 4 turn Med Infs).

We don't have to be building military everywhere at this point as long as we keep EotS, Hurricane, Tornado, Tempest, and Bolderberg on units. Monsoon and OG could both use Temples to get ahold of those Whales so they can grow a bit more.

	21-05-2003 23:32									#20
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Let me say this:

I really like the Colossus, since I think it does really well in the "bang for the buck" category. However, that's my SP view, and since we all agree this game won't last as long as my SP ones (I at least make the mid-industrial age most of the time), its value is somewhat decreased. So I understand not wanting to build it.

However, if we don't, I want my horsemen, damnit! Sire, our glorious armies require more attack troops! Let's go bonk some heads!

-Arrian

	22-05-2003 01:36									#21
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NYE: I totally disagree. This is everything but a fight for survival. Vox are going to lose 7 immortals this turn, and another 5 of their immortals are tied up where they do effectively nothing (except for tying up some of our pikes until we're done with the Arashi/Tempest stack and can move the catapults to fire at the SS stack).

Vulture: IMHO, building the GLib would mean that we'd be getting Chivalry for free, which IMHO would really piss off GoW since we won't be paying them for their tech. It really pisses us off when other teams get opportunistic and abandon previous commitments, we simply can't do the same to other teams - especially since we're aiming for the "trustworthy partner" image.

	22-05-2003 03:20									#22
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Interesting that we feel the war is won while we still defend in our own territory, and speak of periods of many turns simply to dislodge what Vox has facing us on our land.

When the pendulum swings, then it will be Vox with the large advantages that defending in Civ3 gives. Who knows at this point how much force will be required to rout Vox's armies in the field? We'd best put everything into it until we have destroyed their ability to make war, and they are fleeing north and away from D'ville with the remainder.

In short, we haven't won anything yet, except a respite from the assault. To act as if we have won more would be hubris on our parts.

	22-05-2003 03:49									#23
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I wouldn't say that we're currently exactly on the defense, because Vox isn't quite on the offense (most of their troops are sitting idle, the rest are getting catapulted slowly).
I wouldn't say that this war is won (yes, I agree that it would be a terrible hubris to act as if it is won), but IMHO Vox will be nearly useless and defenseless without iron (and I believe that we can take their iron). Then we can walk over spearmen with MedInf, and bombard our way through the tough spots. It won't be a walk in the park, but IMHO it's not as bad as you describe it.

	22-05-2003 03:57									#24
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Edit: wrong thread.

Last edited by Shiber on 22-05-2003 at 04:25

	22-05-2003 04:23									#25
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The point is, the more force we employ, the more certain is the outcome, and the sooner the war is over. Then our entire economy can switch back to development while we wait for the dust to kick up on Bob.

10 turns in Hurricane is 10 horsemen. That is significant indeed.

	22-05-2003 04:27									#26
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It's 7 turns.

I know that we might end the war sooner if we keep building units, but building the Colossus would give Lego their GA. They have the Pyramids, they have lots of territory and if we give them a full 20 turns of peaceful GA to spend on infrastructure right now we may never be able to catch up.

	22-05-2003 06:44									#27
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I would rather win by focusing on what is good for us, than lose by trying to stop something I have no control over.

Lego can have their GA any time they wish to pay GoW for an 'incident' involving a couple of their mercs and an unfortunate GoW warrior.

	22-05-2003 08:35									#28
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Hmmm... I am not so focused on denying Lego.

I like being a warbuilder, and I believe we can grab the Colossus without materially negatively impacting the war effort, with decent fall back builds if we get beaten to the punch.

	22-05-2003 11:06									#29
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We don't even have a strength advantage yet. Not even so little as 25%. But sure, we can build wonders, launch multiple amphibious invasions of Vox territory, and defend our own territory at the same time. Sounds like a plan.

	22-05-2003 11:39									#30
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Up through last turn, we've needed troops so urgently that it's been worth squandering gold rushing them, and now we need them so little that we can afford to divert one of our two most productive cities away from troops for seven turns - maybe a lot longer if we just miss the Colossus and have to go for a fallback wonder?

If I were absolutely certain the Inchon landing would succeed, I could support switching to the Colossus now. But what if Vox has troops parked on the hill when we get there? if Inchon fails and we don't have my proposed iron colony landing or some other heavy east-coast operation against Vox's iron supply as a second means of iron denial, the war could stay close a lot longer than it should and become a lot more expensive than it should.

We'll be using about half our west-coast pikes for Inchon, and we need the other half to make sure we hold Arashi 9. That means EotS and Hurricane have to take care of pike production for an east-coast branch of a pincer move, and I'd really like to have another east-coast galley as well because a six-unit landing has much better odds of living long enough to accomplish something than a four-unit landing does. Give Hurricane three turns or so to do its part in lining that up and then, if we want to, we can start on a wonder. But until then, I think making sure that one way or another, Vox loses its iron supply, needs to take precedence.

Nathan