20-05-2003 20:56									#1
	The General's Ambush Ability Put an end to popups!

To Paul (or anyone else at BHG):

First off, this is not a complaint. This may be the greatest game I have played in a very long time.

However, is Ambush really working the way you guys and the beta testers want it to work? As it is, when you go into Ambush mode, you have 30 seconds of invisibility, regardless of whether or not the General hangs around. 30 seconds is the problem here. Micromanagement nightmare to be specific.

What I would much rather see is that it keeps your units invisible for very, very long periods of time, as long as the General stays with the troops, and then, when the first attack hits an enemy, the invisibility drops. Wouldn't this be a ton more fun?

Imagine this:

You have an army positioned by a forest on the outskirts of town, totally hidden. The enemy does a minimal scan of the area... "Ahhhh!" he says. "Look, no resistance this way!"

Your troops of light cavalry are getting restless, seeing the enemy and wanting to attack him now. Your general keeps them in check, insisting they hold. Your enemy is now in position right outside your town, the bombard cannons are deploying and loading up, ready to unleash holy hell on your poor town...

"NOW!" your general says! Suddenly, from out of nowhere, the enemy general goes white as 14 light horse flank his supply wagons and siege weapons he thought were totally safe!

"A-Ha!!!!" you say! "Not this time punk!"

Now THAT is an ambush, no !?!

-------

My point is, micromanaging this seems to be incredibly tedious with the time limit you put on Ambushing. And, even the argument that multiple generals can just switch off on "invoking" the ambush means ALOT of micromanagement while I am trying to run the empire.

And, if you are inflexible on this because playtesting has proved the way it is is best.... then can you tell me where I myself can edit the ambush timer in the files please?

Thanks guys. And again, Stellar Game!

~ Leaper

	20-05-2003 21:39									#2
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I have a better idea. Your troops stay invisible indefinatly....UNTIL you start moving them. This will allow a real "ambush" type tactic to work. I.E. the scenario you talked of above, where you are laying in wait for a long time for the enemy to attack.

However, the offencive capabilities of ambush are nice too, and i've found that if the units leave the generals radius they become visible again, so it *is* important for the general to hang around (i think?).

	20-05-2003 22:43									#3
	Got spare money?

B -

That would be fine too. No problem with that. The time is the issue for me.

~ L

	21-05-2003 00:07									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I love the Ambush skill as it is. Its an awesome offensive weapon. Perfect for launching sneak offensives. So cool when u just waltz straight in and carve up their illl prepared heartlands while all their troops are near the border or so.

	21-05-2003 00:59									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

Flayer -

Exactly my point. This is not an ambush. This is a sneak attack.

~ L

	21-05-2003 01:50									#6
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yea I think the "invis" should drop as soon as you enter an enemy city radius. I mean who heard of an army walking right through your city streets unseen by anyone deep into the center of your empire and suddenly appearing and attacking. It's like some kind of cloaking device or something. Now, I can see commandos and special forces units doing that but not just any army with a general.

Ambush should not work as though everyone just drank a magical invisibility potion and can suddenly walk freely anywhere they want. A better use of ambush would be either as you said to make it so you can not move like you are truly hiding and waiting or at least you can only move through the "undeveloped" parts of enemy territory but not into a city radius. "Sneak attack" as you describe it should be reserved for commando units.

Of course i have not tried ambush too much so I'm just gonig off the way you are describing it.

	21-05-2003 03:36									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ambush should be left where it is until more playing of the game has occurred. To request a change the day after a game is released is premature.

The problem I see with indefinite invisibility is walking over to the enemies capital and destroying it in one fell swoop before they even know what hit em... Not the best way to end a game imo.

	21-05-2003 05:10									#8
	Remove this text

concurers++;

	21-05-2003 05:43									#9
	Got spare money?

Hmm.. I see Leaper's point: its supposed to be 'Ambush', where the enemy lies in wait for its prey. Right now, it works more like 'Sneak Attack'. I wouldn't mind seeing Ambush grant infinite invisiblity until units move/attack, as opposed to the way it is now. Scouts and spies would be able to see these units.

Actually, I thought this was how it originally was going to work.

	21-05-2003 06:38									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

That's how I thought it would work as well.

	21-05-2003 06:45									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by TheRookiee Ambush should be left where it is until more playing of the game has occurred. To request a change the day after a game is released is premature. The problem I see with indefinite invisibility is walking over to the enemies capital and destroying it in one fell swoop before they even know what hit em... Not the best way to end a game imo.

Rookiee, like I said before, I have NO PROBLEM with deactivating invisibility upon movement. I just think it functions more like a sneak attack now more than a true ambush. And, like I said, I think it would be more fun this way. Your point about giving the game more time to make that assessment is appreciated, but not valid. I played the demo one time and was confused about how the developers wanted "Ambush" to work, which is why I posted.

No disrespect meant to you though.

~ L

	21-05-2003 09:33									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by TheRookiee Ambush should be left where it is until more playing of the game has occurred. To request a change the day after a game is released is premature. The problem I see with indefinite invisibility is walking over to the enemies capital and destroying it in one fell swoop before they even know what hit em... Not the best way to end a game imo.

If you noticed i said indefinate until they moved. They automatically become visible when they fire, so there's no way to be fully invisible and attack the enemy capitol.

	21-05-2003 20:52									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

If you couldn't move your units while cloaked in ambush, the ability would be drastically less useful - even if it lasted indefinitely until those units moved.

The time limit is increased dramatically as you research General/Spy upgrades at the Fort (secondary tech line, hotkey: B).

The amount of micromanagement also seems rather small to me, given that this will probably be the center of your attention until the army comes out of ambush. 2 mouse clicks is rated as "very low micromanagement" in my book, even if you're concentrating on other things and even if you have no general upgrades and have to do it 2 times a minute.

As for "walking over while invisible to the enemy's capital", you can actually do that right now if your opponent makes enough strategic blunders. However most players have a tower or fort built next to their capital, which they will garrison rapidly in order to to prolong the siege while their army comes in to assist. The city will fire on the enemy supply wagon(s) if they're in range (if not, the army will get them) allowing attrition to eat away at the army.

Supposing the attacking player's army beats the defending player's army when that army arrives in a battle near the capital? Well then the attacking army is weakened, suffering attrition, and devoid of timely reinforcements whereas the defending player is able to get reinforcements to that location much quicker and defeat that player's army - even if the capital is taken briefly.

And this is all supposing that the defending player didn't spot it coming a mile away with Scouts and Observation Towers.

It's both a great way to win the game and requires good strategy from both sides to handle the situation - limiting the amount of different types of attacks the aggressor can launch would be less strategic, IMO.

	21-05-2003 21:03									#14
	Suffering from ads?

Axehilt, i ment the time limit was indefinate until units moved, *then* the timer started at 30 seconds or whatever. This would still allow for sneak attacks while at the same time allowing for ambushes.

	21-05-2003 23:04									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hello!
I don't really understand how to use the ambush ability -- even as it is right now.

Here's what I tried to do, maybe you can help...

I was playing one of the Tutorial or Skill missions, I forget which -- you are attempting to take Uranium deposits from a force. Both of you are modern units I believe.
There is a sort of path made by two forests, and at the edge of this path, I entrenched all of my infantry with my generals, and put my artillery just behind them. My tanks waited on both sides whilst my armored cars went up to the enemy position, then immediately retreated, coaxing the enemy forces into my ambush -- I selected my troops and my generals and clicked the ambush button, and two circles appeared, very close to eachother, encompassing all of my troops.
The armored cars speed past my trenches, off to the side, and the enemy forces advance, right into the circles of my waiting ambush and...
nothing happens. My forces do not attack, they just sit there. In desperation I quickly selected them all and right-clicked on the enemies to make them attack, but this of course broke my trench, which was really the center of my strategy -- to sweep them into my wall.

What did I do incorrectly?

Thank you!

	21-05-2003 23:26									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Because they are invisible, and won't attack until you tell them to.

	21-05-2003 23:31									#17
	Suffering from ads?

I need more than that though. You don't help so much but thank you.

In addition, I at times during the campaign have set my attacking forces to ambush and advanced them towards enemy troops, and they are attacked as if they were visible.

Maybe I don't understand how to use this.

	21-05-2003 23:46									#18
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Axehilt If you couldn't move your units while cloaked in ambush, the ability would be drastically less useful - even if it lasted indefinitely until those units moved. The time limit is increased dramatically as you research General/Spy upgrades at the Fort (secondary tech line, hotkey: B).

Axehilt - Do you by chance know the time increases?

Thanks,

L.

	21-05-2003 23:46									#19
	Got spare money?

It sounds like you may be confusing ambush and entrench, two different abilities the general has. Ambush makes your troops invisible to the enemy, so the enemy won't attack you. And I believe, thought I'm not certain, that while in ambush mode your troops won't attack the enemy until you give the order. Entrench makes your troops tougher (raises their armor rating I think). However if you move you lose the entrenchment benefit.

	21-05-2003 23:55									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

haha i kid

But seriously, I am not getting them confused.
I was attempting to use them simultaneously. I first set the infantry to entrench, then I set them to ambush, so that the enemy will run into an entrenchment without seeing it until they are too close to retreat.

	22-05-2003 01:17									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hmmm - that's interesting. Since they're in ambush, I think they won't attack until you give the order. But clicking on a target for them to attack will probably also cause them to move at least a little bit, cancelling the entrenchment. Does anyone else know if there is a way around this dilemna?

	22-05-2003 04:10									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Leaper Axehilt - Do you by chance know the time increases?

Hmm, not offhand. I want to say it goes from 30 seconds and is increased about 30 seconds per upgrade (up to a max of around 2 minutes perhaps?). I'm not sure that's exactly how it progresses though.

It's a good idea in general to get those General upgrades, simply because it increases the radius of their abilities.

	22-05-2003 13:24									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

I believe I have found a solution now.
I select only the generals and click "Halt" or "Stop", I forget which but they are a hand with a sign behind it I think, I'm not sure. This cancels Ambush setting, and then my troops open fire.

A good strategy, yes?

	22-05-2003 15:21									#24
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Yes, and what's more ... it's an actual ambush!

	22-05-2003 23:24									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

What stance where your troops in? (Agressive, defensive, etc..)

	23-05-2003 00:14									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I do not know -- whatever the default is for that stage.
(Skill Tests, Tactics)

	23-05-2003 04:33									#27
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Nevermind.
I tried doing the halt thing again, no luck this time. Maybe the last time the ambush-timer just happened to run out at the same moment.
I guess I'll never get the hang of it.

	23-05-2003 06:37									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Have your entrenched units in a stand ground posture.