20-05-2003 21:29									#1
	Next deal with Lego: Feudalism + gold for Theology? Put an end to popups!

I suggest that we offer Lego a deal involving Feudalism and some gold (in cash or gpt form) on our side in exchange for their Theology, which should be coming around shortly.

The idea is to get some more value out of Feudalism before it's too late and we'll have to pay in full cash for this tech.

I've received some positive responses to this suggestion, so I've set up a poll, as suggested by DeepO.

	20-05-2003 21:39									#2
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We gain little by denying Lego anything. With all the civs around and so little warfare, Lego can and will obtain techs without us. We're either part of the race, or we're not. Although it would be nice to somehow slow down Lego, we would only be doing so at our expense. Thus they will be our best trading partner for the rest of the game (and they know it).

So, I vote Yes for this deal, and will probably vote Yes on all future deals with Lego.


Dominae

	20-05-2003 21:59									#3
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Ergh... did I suggest this? I tried to suggest that you put the question of becoming 3rd player into a poll, sorry for not being too clear

As to this deal: yes of course, but somebody else will need to negotiate for the moment, I'm too busy...

DeepO

	20-05-2003 22:42									#4
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Fine by me. Better we get something back for feudalism now then find out that it has no value later.

-Arrian

	21-05-2003 02:06									#5
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Obviously Yes. My only hope is that they actually accept it. Since we already throroughly discussed this issue with Lego, I think t would be a stinging blow to our relationship if they refused.

In the Legoish sort of way, the situation is even more convenient for them- we no longer put any pressure on them to reduce their trading with Bob in any way- so this is a "regular" trading offer, untied to any other commitment Lego seems quite relcutant to make.

In this regard- I suggest we stop reminding the issue of long term relationship to them, as i think it makes them nervous, and just negotiate the way they negotiate with us- having only this trade in mind.

	21-05-2003 03:54									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yes.

More regular tech trading will help to improve the other teams' attituded towards us.

(Or will it improve our reputation? Where's Catt when you need him??!! )

	21-05-2003 08:26									#7
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Zeit, could you write a proposed message to Lego regarding this matter and post it here?

	21-05-2003 11:00									#8
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I can do that, but i have no idea about the current beaker value of each tech, nor how much are we willing to spend on this. Could someone write the details, please?

	22-05-2003 01:26									#9
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Feudalism: 768 beakers
Theology: 960 beakers (+25% of Feudalism)

	22-05-2003 03:40									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Shiber- did you remember to use the third researcher cost for Feudalism?

That is, unless we want to tell them that we consider each team's investment in research as it's "cost".

	22-05-2003 03:44									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Zeit: no, but let's not mention to them that our tech is much cheaper to research now.

	23-05-2003 00:20									#12
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Damn, i just sent my proposed message, but apolyton decided to stop responding just then, so it is lost...

I'll try again:

quote: Honorable X of Legoland. Greetings from the land of the Storm. I hope things are going well on your peaceful land. Our people envy yours, for they have almost forgotten how it was living peacefuly, with little fear of untimely death. Fortunately, our enemy's forces experience untimely death more frequently than ours, which are of course good news. With our recent progress in the war, our minds are now set on issues other than warplans, such as tech trade. I am sure you remember we once discussed the prospect of future tech trades, more precisely- us purchasing Theology from you in exchange to Feudalism and a sum of gold to compensate you for the tech cost difference. We assume you are still interested, and that you will soon (if not already) have the tech in your possession. Therefor, we are coming with this offer for a trade agreement. I hope you find it reasonable: 1) GS and Legoland will exchange the techs Theology (Lego) for Feudalism (GS). 2) On the same turn, GS will deliver 60 gold in lump sum, to compensate Legoland for the difference in beaker cost of the two techs. Please reply as soon as possible, and if possible- your current estimate on the ETA of Theology, in case you havn't finished research yet.

	23-05-2003 00:50									#13
	Got spare money?

sp: leaving -> living
Other than that,

Edit: I hope they'll accept the 60 gold difference. It is actually a good deal for them IMHO (give or take 10-15 gold), I just hope that they follow the correct train of thought; that is, it is true that GoW may be able to offer them Feudalism for fairly cheap, but would Lego ever have another chance to sell us Theology, or would the same that happened to our Feudalism happen to their Theology?

	23-05-2003 02:55									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I wouldn't mind offering them up to 100 gold for the tech, and suggest a NDA at the same time. Feudalism's price is about to plummet, and Lego knows it.

DeepO

	23-05-2003 03:31									#15
	Got spare money?

DeepO- that's true, but 60 and 100 gold are not that different. I wouldn't mind spending 100 gold on the tech myself. But Lego doesn't seem to be offended by "not so good" offers- as was obvious from the way they handleed their negotiation with us. That's why I see no wrong in making this opening proposal.

Please add you objections/corrections/suggestion, folks.

It's good to see diplomacy is turning back to life! (at least as far as intra-team discussion goes ).

	23-05-2003 09:08									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I still think that the offer is fine.
Lego knows that we don't really NEED Theology right now. If we don't buy it from them now, we may never buy it from them - the same that happened to our Feudalism will happen to their Theology.
If Lego thinks twice they would realize that getting money and Feudalism from us for their Theology is better than buying Feudalism from someone else (though for a very low price) but never being able to sell Theology to us.

	23-05-2003 15:30									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

And even if they won't take this offer, and still want to carry on with the trade they'll have no problem to make a counter-offer. Let them offer the NDA, and ask for more gold, as we really have no problem of letting them have it, but why give them before they ask for?

If there's anyone who won't be offended by this, it's Lego...

	24-05-2003 17:08									#18
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I just realized - maybe we should have worded ourselves differently and not asked Lego to reply as soon as possible. Now they might think that we need Theology quickly for a wonder (the Sistine requires Theology, right?) and ask for more gold.

	24-05-2003 18:48									#19
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Too late- I already sent this. I think what they would think is that we're in a hurry to close a deal before Feudalism becomes dirt cheap- which they don't need clues for.

Oh, and, I got a reply from Vondrack, but my box was full, I'll tell him to resend.