20-05-2003 22:15									#1
	newb questions on design workshop Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

the one feature that probably has taken me the most getting used to in SMAC is the design workshop.

Im getting used to the new designs when i get a new military tech (well thats easy - just click done) and ive designed some of my own units when the workshop AI wasnt putting stuff together quite the way i wanted.

I still tend to have very cluttered build menues. I also dont like the design workshop interface - its hard to see the existing unit categories in the slot listing at the bottom of the screen.

Some silly questions:
If i upgrade a unit, will this obsolete the old unit? Or will it still let me build the old unit till i manually obsolete it? I suspect the latter.

Do you tend to alway obsolete units that have been "superseded"? In Civ2 i didnt have any choice, the game automatically did that (warriors obs by phalanx, etc) Here im tempted to keep the old unit around (might need a cheap unit - im not really checking whether the old unit is really that cheap - too much overwhelming stuff anyway)

All in all how do you keep the design workshop and the build menu manageable?

	20-05-2003 23:16									#2
	Re: newb questions on design workshop Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I also dont like the design workshop interface - its hard to see the existing unit categories in the slot listing at the bottom of the screen.

Your're not the only one here.

quote: Some silly questions: If i upgrade a unit, will this obsolete the old unit? Or will it still let me build the old unit till i manually obsolete it? I suspect the latter.

Two things to distinguish: Upgrading an individual unit (via CTRL+U or SHIFT+U, don't remember at the moment) does not obsolete anything. Your unit simply becomes a unit of the design you upgraded to.
In the worshop you can upgrade all units of a given type. This removes the old design (but you keep your units, who now have the new design). You can redesign the old unit, however, if you wish to. Upgrading the entire class from the workshop has the advantage that you don't lose the units' turn.

quote: Do you tend to alway obsolete units that have been "superseded"? In Civ2 i didnt have any choice, the game automatically did that (warriors obs by phalanx, etc) Here im tempted to keep the old unit around (might need a cheap unit - im not really checking whether the old unit is really that cheap - too much overwhelming stuff anyway)

Depends (finally I said it). I don't upgrade from the most simple crawler design if I'm going to use them for crawling. Then I make frequent use of shells (cheap trained units) which go obsolete from time to time. Perhaps you also don't want to upgrade police units if you ran low of money. Otherwise I try to have at least one of weapon or armour at best for the time given.

quote: All in all how do you keep the design workshop and the build menu manageable?

The most important thing is: Don't let the computer automatically design new units. It's horrible enough that you are forced to when you get a new reactor. Then I try to upgrade obsolete designs if I've got the ?nergy credits left. And sometimes I give new names to units I plan to use for a longer time (especially the Worm Guard with 3r resonance armour and hypnotic trance, which becomes obsolete with the 8r armour only). Don't know if that fits your needs.

Hope that helps

	21-05-2003 00:19									#3
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i'd recommend not using the "obsolete" button. IIRC, this doesn't delete the unit from the workshop, it just eliminates it from the build screen, and puts it in the "obsolete" section of the workshop scroll. if you want to retire a unit design (often you havn't even built the unit) press the upgrade or retire button. this will get rid of the old design from the workshop list

see below: units in white are obsolete, but some are still active. in grey are obsolete, but none are active. all else are just normal units. by pressing the "obsolete" button, you're not getting rid of the unit, it's going in the grey or white section. these are just clutter so i'd recommend dealing with them

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	21-05-2003 01:39									#4
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TKG, the pattern isn't that consistent to me. I found white designs where I currently had no unit, and vice versa.

I'd still recommend using the "obsolete" button. If you delete the design, you're going to delete all existing units of this design. If you don't obsolete old units, you'll keep all the crap in the city build screen, which I enter more often than the unit workshop.IMHO, it's a good idea to see if you've got the money to upgrade the single 2-1-2 recon rover to 8-1-2 just to clean up the workshop.

	21-05-2003 02:47									#5
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The game automatically labled units obsolete when you have built a more advanced unit.

	21-05-2003 06:04									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus I'd still recommend using the "obsolete" button. If you delete the design, you're going to delete all existing units of this design. If you don't obsolete old units, you'll keep all the crap in the city build screen, which I enter more often than the unit workshop.IMHO, it's a good idea to see if you've got the money to upgrade the single 2-1-2 recon rover to 8-1-2 just to clean up the workshop.

as taz says the game usually obsoletes units for you. and i rarely retire designs. if there's something obsolete i'll just upgrade it. that way it's out of the base screen *and* the workshop.

however, usually don't have too many units designed anyways since i'm rarely at war. all i need is a rover, infantry (rarely used), a garrison or 2 (maybe 1 with AAA and 1 with ECM or something) a chopper and noodle and an interceptor. when it comes to crawlers and formers however, i tend to have about 30 designs of each

	21-05-2003 06:29									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Taz The game automatically labled units obsolete when you have built a more advanced unit.

This only occurs if you have the auto-prune flag set to 'on'.

	21-05-2003 10:14									#8
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TKG, I usually build quite a lot of different units. I'm at war most of the time unless the number of my submissives converges towards six. The AI simply loves suicidal wars. And I tend to leave at least an AAA, an ECM, and a Worm Guard in each of my bases. Just love it to be attacked by a conventional missile - and the missile loses (Silksteel + AAA + Aerospace + Sensor can do the job). Together a rover, a SAM noodle, a Chopper, and three generations of weapon and armour and two reactor designs it's already quite a lot.

	22-05-2003 00:52									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Mongoose This only occurs if you have the auto-prune flag set to 'on'.

I suppose you guessed how I have it set up then?

	22-05-2003 02:50									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Taz The game automatically labled units obsolete when you have built a more advanced unit.

Sometimes this is awful. I always shut the autoprune and design units automatically features off because I freakin' hate it when the game "uprgrades" production all my copters to needlejets and says they're better.

	22-05-2003 03:12									#11
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quote: Originally posted by BustaMike because I freakin' hate it when the game "uprgrades" production all my copters to needlejets and says they're better.

that computer


I turn off autodesign and autoprune Always and make my own units-- I give them my own names to distinguish them

I do keep old units around for a long time. My interior bases may be defended by a single 1-1-1 with no probe team accompanying although its more likely that it would be a 1-1-1 with nonlethal methods if I have a decent police rating.

	22-05-2003 18:08									#12
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quote: Originally posted by BustaMike Sometimes this is awful. I always shut the autoprune and design units automatically features off because I freakin' hate it when the game "uprgrades" production all my copters to needlejets and says they're better.

i presume it does the same for the AI players (in SP)

	23-05-2003 00:27									#13
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quote: i presume it does the same for the AI players (in SP)

Well, kind of. It means they only design certain types of units in the first place. Ever seen the AI built a chopper? I have maybe once if at all.

	23-05-2003 03:06									#14
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From discussions on this board I got the impression that every bit of automation which is offered to you uses the same routines as the AI. AI knows the whereabout of every unit on planet (so it's futile trying to hide in fungus or build a unit with cloaking device in Single Player). If you order your units to attack enemies on their own, they'll also "see" hidden enemy units. Automated terraforming is similarly silly as the AI's ...

	23-05-2003 09:33									#15
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quote: Automated terraforming is similarly silly as the AI's ...

What ever do you mean? It's good to build a farm/mine on an arid flat square right?

	23-05-2003 09:48									#16
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quote: Originally posted by BustaMike Ever seen the AI built a chopper? I have maybe once if at all.

I played one of these "revolving faction" games (SP) where I changed factions every 100 turns or so. My penultimate change was from the Hive to, I think, The Angels, around 2350 or so, and I left the Hive with some 15 choppers. and maybe 4 drop units.

Imagine my surprise when some 30 years later they attacked the Angels and I got swarmed with around fifty choppers - I was on 2 small continents with some 8 bases on each by then, and got chopped and dropped in one and lost all 8 bases.

Talk about a classic "jaw-drop"

G.

	23-05-2003 11:09									#17
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I wonder sometimes if I got a special edition or something, so many things people say the AI doesn't do...
I regularly see the AI build various configurations of Copters with no input from me, and no alpha.txt edits.
Of course, it uses them about as well as it uses Conventional Missiles (Worm-Bombs), and usually beyond the "point of no return"
I guess if the Worms can't be hit any other way (like waiting for them to come in range of Empath Rovers or some such better-qualified unit), you crash your Copter into the boil, make mincemeat of them when the rotor blades go flying off, and fry the whole mess when the reactor blows.
And the only hero we have is Richard Baxton, aka Recon Rover Rick.

	23-05-2003 20:08									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I played one of these "revolving faction" games (SP) where I changed factions every 100 turns or so. My penultimate change was from the Hive to, I think, The Angels, around 2350 or so, and I left the Hive with some 15 choppers. and maybe 4 drop units. Imagine my surprise when some 30 years later they attacked the Angels and I got swarmed with around fifty choppers - I was on 2 small continents with some 8 bases on each by then, and got chopped and dropped in one and lost all 8 bases. Talk about a classic "jaw-drop" G.

I just HAVE to play another revolving faction game ( I'll just have to clone myself to find the time)

	26-05-2003 05:23									#19
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Once, the enemy sent a whole bunch of Laser Synthemetal Fusion Gunships at me. Good thing I had a lot of Needlejets and AA defences! Personally, I like keeping a Needlejet interceptor, an Airborne Probe, and a SAM vehicle in the workshop at all times.