21-05-2003 08:31									#31
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Spiffor, it still has that reputation, unfortunetly.

	21-05-2003 08:33									#32
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Tuberski :
By your theory, tennis is #1 in the US , or , ....

Imran :
Gah, I wanted to provoke you into saying something like "SOCCER !1!!1 :mand "

	21-05-2003 08:33									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You had the same thing back in the 70s, yet soccer didn't really take off and hasn't.

I don't disagree with the past, I'm not even saying that the MLS will take off. It is unavoidable - the major sports are just too expensive for schools with tight budgets to afford. Do the math, soccer is just a helluva lot cheaper, and if the middle schools and high schools don't support kids playing baseball and football, who is going to populate the college ranks and pros? It could be a long time, but I doubt it. And I think the US results in the World Cup will be irrelevant.

	21-05-2003 08:33									#34
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the only time Americans ever gave a **** about soccer is when that chick took her shirt off.

	21-05-2003 08:34									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Tuberski : By your theory, tennis is #1 in the US , or , .... Imran : Gah, I wanted to provoke you into saying something like "SOCCER !1!!1 :mand "

Scoring + violence= Attendance.



ACK!

	21-05-2003 08:34									#36
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As far as spectator sport goes, handmelon is boring. You have people standing around for long stretches of time, then something happens for a few seconds, then everything stops again for eons. OTOH, football is continuous, unless there's a dead ball.

Plus, there's a lot more skill involved in football. Brute strength doesn't work here. No, you are not allowed to beat up the ball carrier to take the ball away.

	21-05-2003 08:35									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Scoring + violence= Attendance.

I can't wait to see the bloodball tounrament begin

	21-05-2003 08:37									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor OK thanks I thought Football was considered in the US as a game for sissies, whereas real men player American football.

That is true, but is a problem for the US games going forward. The average size of offensive linemen in the US game is now close to 300 lbs. The game is so power dominated that most kids know they don't have the slimest hope of playing the game at the professional level. Basketball suffers from some similar problems. If you don't have 3sigma genes to make you huge, you are at a tremendous disadvantage. Most kids realize early that they are not going to be 6'6".

	21-05-2003 08:38									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Scoring + violence= Attendance. ACK!

Yeah right, what's with the protective pads? Lets see some real injuries there.

	21-05-2003 08:40									#40
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quote: It is unavoidable - the major sports are just too expensive for schools with tight budgets to afford. Do the math, soccer is just a helluva lot cheaper, and if the middle schools and high schools don't support kids playing baseball and football, who is going to populate the college ranks and pros? It could be a long time, but I doubt it.

I don't follow your soccer determinism (or Hegelianism if you prefer) . People don't really 'get' soccer. They watch it, and don't notice nuances and get bored of it. People that play it when young start losing interest when older. Soccer may be cheaper, but people in the US don't see anything special. I mean, it is the sport that anyone can play, right? I think that diminishes it. People watch American football and say, wow... that 300 lb lineman just ran a 4.5 second 40 meter dash, or that basketball player just jumped 8 feet, or that baseball player hit a 90 mph fastball. Things they could NEVER do, but they think they can do soccer (which, frankly, they never could) and thus it loses the luster.

And of course, preconcieved notions on how boring and unskillful the game is. Not that different from UR's observations on American football. Inbound prejudices that are keeping people from understanding and loving the game.

	21-05-2003 08:41									#41
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quote: The game is so power dominated

Don't forget speed dominated. I'm sure Mike Vick could win a few events in the Olympics (he was on the VTech track team as well). People see these freaks of nature and are in awe. They tune in to watch these supermen do battle on the gridiron.

	21-05-2003 08:46									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And of course, preconcieved notions on how boring and unskillful the game is. Not that different from UR's observations on American football. Inbound prejudices that are keeping people from understanding and loving the game.

Hm.

I'd say there's a lot more skills involved in football than US handmelon. The only skill intensive post on a handmelon team is the QB (and probably the kicker). What skill is needed for the blockers?

Don't forget the football forwards have great speed as well.

	21-05-2003 08:49									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Yeah right, what's with the protective pads? Lets see some real injuries there.

What does violence have to do with injuries?

Movies are violent and few people are injured making them.

I suppose you don't watch movies because the people aren't really injured....



ACK!

	21-05-2003 08:50									#44
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You make my point for me, UR.

I'd contend (being a big fan of soccer) that American football players have more skill than soccer players. Offensive linemen are one of the most skilled positions, you have to hit your blocks JUST right, especially on complicated pulling assignments and trap blocks. It requires great skill to pull that off and outsmart your defensive counterpart that the same time. You need quick feet, strong upper body, and an awareness of the defense at all times. The best offensive linemen are more valuable than anyone else on the team. WRs need skill in running crisp patterns and catching the ball in traffic. RBs need skill in finding holes in the line and exploiting them. Defensive players need great amounts of skill in decifering the offense and then trying to break it.

If the offensive line doesn't require skill why do teams ALWAYS pick offensive linemen very high in the draft? A great offensive lineman (especially a great left tackle) can make your team good for at least a decade.

	21-05-2003 08:57									#45
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I agree with Imran on the skill aspect, the American game is all set pieces that are elaborately coreographed. The planning required is unparalleled in modern sport. It is the most military of all sports - which is why I call handmelon "war" rules football.

But the injury danger makes parents not want their kids to play the game. How many american soccer professionals are the kids of american football players? Quite a few.

I am being Calvinistic about the american destiny, which is an eggageration of my belief, but I do think that the #1 & #2 rank of football and baseball will be under severe pressure.

	21-05-2003 08:58									#46
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there is a reason that football (american football damnit!) and not soccer is the number 1 spectator sport, and that is because it is very tv friendly and because the NFL is the best run professional sports league imo with the NBA being right behind it

while it is true that on the majority of plays in football nothing happens, there is the possibility on any given play that anything could happen. the guys playing in the NFL are monsters...unlike this falsehood that football players are strong slow fat guys...looking at both chicago football team's rosters you get the following

the fire's biggest player is 6'3 230 (zach thornton)
the bear's biggest player is 6'5 330 (ted washington)

i have no clue who is the best on the fire's team but i saw the banner for marsch who is 5'11 170

put him up against urlacher at 6'4 260, and runs a 4.59 40 (40 yard dash)

http://www.sportcenters.net/Urlacher.html

NFL players are strong, fast, and agile, and a game of football fits perfectly with commercials, which reaps the NFL billions, which is then split amongst all of the teams making everyone (except for the bengeals lol) competitive. plus look at pop culture, how many musicians wear NFL jerseys compared to MLS jerseys? while the NFL might not always keep soccer down, american football isn't going away anytime soon

	21-05-2003 08:59									#47
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That's my problem with your view, Sten . You know I love soccer, but I don't forsee it overtaking basketball in the next 25 years. Perhaps I am more of a pessimist, but it will be very hard for it to break through.

The best case scenario is for it to accelerate as NASCAR has, but in the national consciousness, NASCAR, while the fastest growing sport, is liked only by hicks. I think the media propaganda will be that soccer is only like by foriegners or kids of foriegners.

	21-05-2003 09:02									#48
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 i have no clue who is the best on the fire's team but i saw the banner for marsch who is 5'11 170 put him up against urlacher at 6'4 260, and runs a 4.59 40 (40 yard dash) [

That is funny, considering that soccer is more like running a 10k. Who wins that race??

Zack's father played TE for the Bears, by the way...

	21-05-2003 09:06									#49
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quote: there is a reason that football (american football damnit!) and not soccer is the number 1 spectator sport, and that is because it is very tv friendly and because the NFL is the best run professional sports league imo with the NBA being right behind it

Those are very good reasons and ultimatly correct. The NFL IS good for TV and is very, very, very well run (the anti-MLB). I agree with you that the NFL is going nowhere; however, I think the strength of the NBA is overstated. MLB WILL stay #2 for quite a while. People still love the game (ie, such as me) and the strategy within it.

	21-05-2003 09:06									#50
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Chalk up another vote for the NE revolution here.

	21-05-2003 09:09									#51
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sten

you're missing the point, american football players are amazing athletes, and if you count the total amount of running done in a football game it is at least a couple of kilometers as well...if you are in the NFL you have size, strength, speed, skill, endurance, etc.

to me soccer doesn't seem to have that

	21-05-2003 09:13									#52
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The fire usually play at Soldier Field in Chicago, (the same place the Bears play) except that the stadium is under renovation, so the Fire are playing at North Central College which is a bad venue IMO. I should know, I've seen two Fire games there and wish that Soldier Field would hurry and get finished. I really liked watching the Fire at Soldier Field.

	21-05-2003 09:14									#53
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imran,

I'm not a fan of baseball, it is one of my least favorite sports, but I seriously hate to see MLB's (mis)management be one of the most important reasons in the apparent decline of the sport. I can't make up my mind who holds the fans in more contempt the owners or the players. It's just really sad...

If they would do things differently I think MLB has the possibility of really staging a comeback. Baseball fans seems to be some of the most diehard fans out there.

	21-05-2003 09:16									#54
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korn, the real amazing thing, however, is that baseball's ratings and attendance are STILL high! They've been breaking attendance records and doing it well. People bemoan the management, but the game is still doing well. Imagine how great it would be if management was running smoothly!!

	21-05-2003 09:17									#55
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quote: Imagine how great it would be if management was running smoothly!!

i agree with you on that, and I hope one day it actually happens

	21-05-2003 09:21									#56
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korn - I don't disagree with you at all about the total physical package of NFL players. But only corners, receivers, backs, and QBs are light enough for soccer, the other guys just physically have to much muscle mass to run for a full 90 minutes without stopping.

American experience with American football's plays will be the feature that ends up making the US the dominant global soccer nation. True! We are starting to see the advantages to goalkeepers from traditional American sports. We will rule on set pieces, and our coaching skills with those will change the face of the global game. You heard it here.


For Rothy:

http://www.barnburners.com/

	21-05-2003 09:25									#57
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Hopefully, Sten .

I'd love to be in a Europe pub the day the US wins its first World Cup, just to see the stunned look on their faces .

	21-05-2003 09:26									#58
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sten

now don't get me wrong, i used to play soccer all the time after school, and i appreciate the game. I just think that in America tons of other sports are just far more rooted in our culture. Instead of trying to get MLS to compete with other professional sports for ratings, if I was trying to market soccer, I'd put on emphasis on NCAA soccer and try to build up a following there. Maybe a slight americanization of the rules could help boost soccer's status. One of the major things about the NFL, MLB, and the NBA is the matchups both on and off the field. While I know it is certainly possible for one soccer coach to out wit another, it isn't on the same level as in american football. A great team with a bad coach/coaching staff will lose to a good team with a great coach in most instances. Soccer has on the field matchups, but the relative few pauses in the game to readjust your strategy compared to the relative large amounts of time to get the ball back in play is a real downer for many americans. It's like they stop soccer for unimportant reasons, and the game lacks the strategic depth of American football.

	21-05-2003 09:43									#59
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korn - I agree with every one of your points. Especially the NCAA thing. The MLS is doing a lot of things poorly, and their league structure is certainly one of them. Integrating American strategic sports design into soccer is one thing that will make the game work here

	21-05-2003 10:08									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'd contend (being a big fan of soccer) that American football players have more skill than soccer players. Offensive linemen are one of the most skilled positions, you have to hit your blocks JUST right, especially on complicated pulling assignments and trap blocks. It requires great skill to pull that off and outsmart your defensive counterpart that the same time.

To me, it's a bit like sumo wrestling. Skill plays a role, yes, but strength is much more important, particularly when blockers can use their hands to grab and shove instead of just bumping with their bodies. It makes the job just that much easier.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You need quick feet, strong upper body, and an awareness of the defense at all times. The best offensive linemen are more valuable than anyone else on the team. WRs need skill in running crisp patterns and catching the ball in traffic. RBs need skill in finding holes in the line and exploiting them. Defensive players need great amounts of skill in decifering the offense and then trying to break it.

So do football forwards and centres. Since football is dynamic as opposed to static like handmelon, in fact each and every one of the players must be able to continuously evaluate the whole situation, discern the intents of your teammates as well as opposing players, and make your own moves accordingly.

On the other hand, football players just mostly carry out instructions, plans devised by the coach and various assistants.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui If the offensive line doesn't require skill why do teams ALWAYS pick offensive linemen very high in the draft? A great offensive lineman (especially a great left tackle) can make your team good for at least a decade.

Sure, but QB's are always at the top "Very high" is just comparatively speaking.