21-05-2003 09:51									#1
	Border Proposal Get a bigger avatar today!

Given that we will agree to CDG's request for a border (we will, however, tie such a border to our fragile NAP with loophole), I have prepared the following rough diagram of what we will be asking for:

The yellow line indicates the border we'll agree to. This is the '6 tile' line between our civs.

Since they will build a city at the chokepoint, it is pointless to ask for access to CFC.

The light blue lines are our previously agreed 'no settle' lines.

Ignore the white lines, I used them to help me count the tiles.



If this is agreed to, we would have 134 tiles on our side, 100 of which are presently outside of our cultural borders. (41 in the top, 47 in the SE, 12 in the central). We would also have 2 incense, 4 dyes, 2 iron, 1 horse.

They would have 75 unclaimed tiles in their north going all the way to the chokepoint. Their border would include 2 incense, 2 dyes, 2 iron.

This split gives us more land, but it's a very easy split. I'm curious to see if they'll go for it or ask for a piece of the south-eastern peninsula. If they will agree to this split, I think we should as well.

--Togas

Last edited by Togas on 21-05-2003 at 10:03

	21-05-2003 10:08									#2
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look at the bright side... a city at the chokepoint is a city which could have been built on better interior land

	21-05-2003 10:08									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There's a slight problem that we should address now; I don't want them to have these two tiles I makerked in orange. We should specifically ask for these two tiles to be include on our side of the border.

	21-05-2003 10:11									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Clearly, we would say the border goes from coast to coast only.

--Togas

	21-05-2003 11:39									#5
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They do seem desperate for a border agreement.

Negotiate hard and see what we can get.
1. Coast to Coast only
2. Morris must disappear.
3. Our early warning warriors will remain but will be moved back when they begin to settle towards the border.
4. We want access through the chokepoint before they build their city.

Just let them know most of our team does NOT want the border. The FAM needs some of the above concessions in order to sell the agreement to our team.

Regs

	21-05-2003 12:24									#6
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I will mention those points to CDG if I ever can catch them for a chat H_E. Thanks

	21-05-2003 19:23									#7
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I agree with the proposed border (coast to coast only) and I also agree with some of H_E's points:

1) negotiating tactics: "...we need something to sell it to the team."
2) Morris must go, NOW
3) BigFree goes home

+4) be it apparent/agreed upon or hidden/loophole, the border must not be "forever" (truly permanent).

Although we should try getting them agree to our screen remaining in place until they expand, offering to tolerate their warriors outside of our cultural borders in exchange, I doubt they will agree. I would not make this a condition necessary for signing the treaty.

However, I wouldn't even mention the chokepoint issue at all. As correctly pointed out in another thread, by letting us through they would let CFC through as well, most probably even losing the chokepoint to them completely.

	21-05-2003 19:34									#8
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This will be another test of CDG's brains. This proposal actually screws them with an elephant-sized instrument. They may get 79 tiles...but how many of those are mountains? 16? So what they're really getting is 63 workable tiles compared to our...what, 6 or 7 mountain tiles? Even if they didn't know we had a sizable area to our north, the distribution would still be 2 to 1 in our favor, as opposed to nearly 3 to 1 in our favor, as it is now.


Can we prepare a diplomatic apology and "oops, silly us, we mistyped that" type message for if they absolutely explode at us and call us con artists?

	21-05-2003 19:44									#9
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I think they will accept it.

The access past the choke point is just something we can agree not to happen during negotiations. Give a little - take a little etc etc

They just want any border to ensure they are safe when they attack south.

They have little intention on honouring it in the future...just like us.
After they have finished their southern campaign, they will look east towards us.

All they want is a safe little area they can call their own, while they generate their military.

	22-05-2003 01:25									#10
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BFM raised a very good point when commenting on the 10ad screen shot I posted in Trip's thread.

Our planned cites 3 and 4 are built right on the border, so their base cultural borders go over the 6 tile line. Perhaps we should negotiate this point. Have the border jog to accomodate cities 3 and 4? My reading of some of their messages leads me to believe they may well be open to this.

	22-05-2003 01:43									#11
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I believe we should make it very clear that the "border" is actually a "settlement line" - cultural borders MAY expand beyond (would be difficult to guarantee our cultural borders never cross it), but city tiles must always be placed on the "right" side of it.

But it IS a very good point and we should make sure CDG understands the line the same way we do.

	22-05-2003 01:57									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

We can add this into the agreement. "If a Civ's cultural border's expand beyond the 6 tile border, then the Cultural borders will constitute the border between our Civs."

	22-05-2003 02:26									#13
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Just say that the border is a settlement line only and has no effect on cultural borders (which you really can't control anyway).

	22-05-2003 02:34									#14
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Just say that the border is a settlement line only and has no effect on cultural borders (which you really can't control anyway).

Agreed with WB. Putting emphasis on what happens, if the cultural borders... blah blah blah... is a sure way to make them start suspecting our plans are to culture bomb them...

	22-05-2003 02:47									#15
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

That won't work guys. CDG want a border in which no units form the other civ is allowed to cross over the line. They do not want a "settlement line" only. If our cultural border, or theirs, crosses over the 6 tile line, then we should have something in the agreement that says that what ever is encompassed in thoise borders is under our control, though no team shall settle any city beyond the 6 tile border.