21-05-2003 22:59									#61
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"I find it laughable that before the war people told us Iraq was none of our business, and now apparently the whole situation is "our mess." Pardon me, but if it's our mess, why didn't you cram the protests and let us clean house?"

Gulf War II is Americas mess, but now it is there, it should clean it up. The Iran/Iraq war was also Americas mess, but it was made decades ago, but again, now you're there....

"Say you need to move, and you don't have enough money to hire movers, rent a truck, etc... So, you ask all your friends to help you. Most of them make up lame excuses or fall of the face of the planet for some reason. The only two to come to your aid are Sam and Jack, and the begin to help you move. In the course of doing so they break a mirror of yours. Now, are you going to ask them to replace the mirror? Or, would you thank them for the help, since you really needed it, and replace it yourself?"

Firstly, in this case, America is more than capable of "moving house" on its own. Secondly, it is not America's mirror we are dealing with. It is the Iraq furniture. If this moving firm breaks their "clients" mirror, then they should pay for it (although thats not how it sometimes work). Using my previous analogy, if a plumber repairs some pipes, but does not fill the hole in the wall, then he should not expect to get paid.

" By the way limey, the UK was involved in this whole mess too, but by no means should the rest of the world reap the profit of war that the US took (there I said it)."

Yes... yes you did! Thankyou for confirming what I've been thinking and arguing with people for months!

"Yet, the Iraqi people will get what is theres... It is the price of freedom"

Again, you're forcing your subjective point of view, no matter how much sense it makes to us, on another equally valid view. You are not in a position to judge a dictatorship, neither am I. As a subjective, you cannot judge an equally valid subjective. Only objectives can do that, and the objective here my friend, is/was the UN!

	21-05-2003 22:59									#62
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DanS: I think the fraud occured when Bush didn't allow any fair bids on the projects as is the norm.

	21-05-2003 23:02									#63
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That's not fraud.

	21-05-2003 23:05									#64
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What exactly does "limey" mean anyway?

I always take ad hominems as a sign of inferior reasoning, but I am always curious as to what the insults and the flaming actually means! Someone care to translate?

	21-05-2003 23:18									#65
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quote: if a plumber repairs some pipes, but does not fill the hole in the wall, then he should not expect to get paid.

What if there is a leak in the wall, and for the plumber to get at it, he has to breakdown the wall? Does he have to pay for the wall?

	21-05-2003 23:22									#66
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A limey is slang for a Brit

	21-05-2003 23:25									#67
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Of course!! Funny you should mention that, it happened to my grandparents a few years back (well the wall wasnt entirely demolished, but still), and they expected the plumber to pay for the damage. He did so willingly, as he was paid by my grandparents to repair the pipe and its damage. My analogy holds methinks.

	21-05-2003 23:28									#68
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"A limey is slang for a Brit"

Ah!! In that case, I assume its a reference to the scurvy thing? All you're really saying is that we have better sailors! jk Americas military dominance is, and never was, in doubt.

	21-05-2003 23:28									#69
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Broken pipe - Saddam
Wall - Iraq
Grandparents - Iraqii People
Plumber - The Coalition

	21-05-2003 23:30									#70
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Besides, America hardly broke down the wall. The damage in Iraq can be easily repaired. It should be paid by the Americans. The US Admin. said themselves that war causes damage, and Iraq had a decimated economy. Thus it cannot repair itself immediately, and oil revenue will take much time, oil corps are cautious with the region ATM.

	21-05-2003 23:32									#71
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"Broken pipe - Saddam
Wall - Iraq
Grandparents - Iraqii People
Plumber - The Coalition"

Grandparents - Iraqi people, except the Iraqis didnt ask for American "help"

Plumber - The Coalition.... a cowboy builder!

	21-05-2003 23:38									#72
	Suffering from ads?

If anyone doesnt know what a cowboy builder is, its what we call in Britain a builder whose credentials at doing what he does are below parr, botches his jobs, and is generally a bit of a money-grabber. Also rude to old ladies.

	21-05-2003 23:44									#73
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quote: Grandparents - Iraqi people, except the Iraqis didnt ask for American "help"

Didn't look that way to me.

If you think the Iraqi people were the Bath Party then, IMO, you are sadly mistaken.

	21-05-2003 23:48									#74
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Did the Americans take a secret ballot of the Iraqi people that I dont know about?

If you are taking the views of refugees as your justification for going to WAR with a nation, then you are using very poor evidence for the desires of the Iraqi people. That is starting to show now, as people in Iraq are more and more angry at the Americans. An Iraqi friend of mine stated that though they hated Saddam, at least he was a fellow Arab. That from a man whose parents were threatened with their lives by him, and thus they left.

One will generally find that refugees will not like the land they escape, which is why they left in the first place. It is highly unreliable evidence, and would not stand up in any reputable court, as evidence for the views of the Iraqi people.

	22-05-2003 03:07									#75
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quote: Originally posted by DanS As far as I know, they want the Iraqis to pay them back with oil money. Why don't you just say that you don't know? Why would the US require this?

So the US taxpayer will fit the reconstruction bill, not Iraq's oil revenue? Or what?

	22-05-2003 03:45									#76
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So the US taxpayer will fit the reconstruction bill, not Iraq's oil revenue? Or what?

The congress has authorized spending so far of about $2 billion in humanitarian assistance/reconstruction. This modest communications contract is part of the $2 billion. There has been absolutely no suggestion that we would be reimbursed for any of this $2 billion.

	22-05-2003 12:33									#77
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"There has been absolutely no suggestion that we would be reimbursed for any of this $2 billion."

Ah yes, but that's not the entire story. The 2 billion serve as the entry point to the maybe 100 billion for Iraqi reconstruction, funded mostly from its oil revenue. And the US seeks to control that money - and one can only assume, to hand it out as pork to US companies.

	22-05-2003 12:43									#78
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Worldcom is now managed by Michael Capella, a genius who managed to sell the worthless piece of Compaq to HP for 20 billion and took 16 million in severance for bailing out after only 6 months.

Now he is the CEO of Worldcom, another brilliant move in my opinion: if he saves the company, he becomes the hero; if he doesn't, he takes no blame since Worldcom i\was already bankrupt.

	22-05-2003 13:14									#79
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I understood that WorldCom is one of the best in it's area of expertice, despite it's crappy management.

	22-05-2003 13:17									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun I understood that WorldCom is one of the best in it's area of expertice, despite it's crappy management.

Yes, it is the best among telecom companies at ripping off their customers.

	22-05-2003 15:11									#81
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$2 Billion is a) a drop in the ocean to the US, and b) not even coming close to being enough to rebuild Iraq to turn it into the sort of society the US wants it to be (another example of one subjective point of view being forced on another... and in this case it wont work for various sociological reasons that are irrelevent here).

The money to repair Iraq and "get it up to speed", should come from the USA. Are we going to see another example of bad stamina like we saw in Afghanistan? Or are we going to see the USA funding from its own pocket the "project" that it, for whatever [misguided] reasons, it undertook.

Is the money to repair Iraq, something on the order of $70B - $100B I would estimate, going to come from the US pocket, or will Iraq have to provide it for itself, via its own oil and the UN trust fund? Straight answers only please.

If not, why not?

Again, straight intelligent answers. From now on, I take pointless flaming and ad hominems as a sign of poor reasoning and concession in the argument, we should start thinking with our minds, not our flags.