22-05-2003 23:06									#31
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Low profile?! Are you on crack? He sent his attack dogs following Powell around the global trying to whip people into an anti-American frenzy. He knew this crisis was his ticket out of the doghouse and he was right. 82% of Frenchmen are happy with him now instead of the minority prior to the crisis.

You are mixing everything up. Chirac was elected in May last year by 82% (election, not popularity gallup). The whole affair started in september and you heared nothing from Chirac before february soonest.

	22-05-2003 23:08									#32
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT You are mixing everything up. Chirac was elected in May last year by 82% (election, not popularity gallup). The whole affair started in september and you heared nothing from Chirac before february soonest.

Ah yes, the famous popular revulsion against the far right.

A pity it didn't happen in 1940, but that's all in the past.

	22-05-2003 23:08									#33
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Agathon It doesn't matter anyway, Chirac was on the side of right and you are just wrong. The given reasons for invading Iraq have not panned out and it's obvious that the real reasons were typically venal.

rofl! You're not serious. Chirac was taking orders from rich French business interests to keep the gravy train running. He knowingly and willingly aided a brutal regime that oppressed its people for his own personal benefit. Bush ain't no better, but please. Spare us the canonization of Chirac.

and you call yourself a communist...

What is so ironic about the whole Iraq thing is that for years France dumped all over the US for propping up nasty tinpot dictators during the cold war. Now that the tables are turned, we have to hear crap about the importance of "Soveriegn nations". My @ss. That doesn't mean squat to suffering people.

	22-05-2003 23:16									#34
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Chirac's hypocracy is absolutely unbelievable especially since he was so busy condemning the US for acting in a similiar manner.

	22-05-2003 23:16									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Agathon I doubt it. I don't see AQ basically threatening to use nuclear weapons.

Then you are not looking. Or do you not remember the designs for "dirty" bombs and the nuclear weapons research found in the caves of Afghanistan?

To even insinuate that AQ and terrorism isn't the biggest global threat is to demonstrate a total lack of understanding on international issues. This is, however, a typical problem with many on the far left of things.

	22-05-2003 23:18									#36
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Chirac's hypocracy is absolutely unbelievable especially since he was so busy condemning the US for acting in a similiar manner.

On the contrary...his hypocracy is very believable. He has made a career of it, in fact!!

	22-05-2003 23:30									#37
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Then you are not looking. Or do you not remember the designs for "dirty" bombs and the nuclear weapons research found in the caves of Afghanistan?

Who's worse. I'm picking the US, which has killed far more innocent people than AQ.

	22-05-2003 23:32									#38
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin America is an evil, evil place Agathon. Never forget it is far better to live in crappy Arab dictatorship.

Especially one, that like most crappy Arab dictatorships, is or has been propped up by the US against the wishes of its people.

You'll have to do a lot better than this Oerdin. At the moment the credibility of your avatar outmatches yours.

	22-05-2003 23:34									#39
	Got spare money?

So, the UN agreed to something that happened whether they liked it or not.

What a headline..

"UN agrees to face reality"

Won't see that again anytime soon.

	22-05-2003 23:37									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by gunkulator rofl! You're not serious. Chirac was taking orders from rich French business interests to keep the gravy train running. He knowingly and willingly aided a brutal regime that oppressed its people for his own personal benefit. Bush ain't no better, but please. Spare us the canonization of Chirac.

You know - you too will have to do better than this. I said that it didn't matter what Chirac's motives were. My point was that the Ameri-scum weren't much different (in fact their motives were probably worse) and that Chirac was on the right side, albeit for different reasons.

You can flap on all you like, but this war was waged on fake pretexts partly to make sure that people of limited political awareness, like yourself, would vote for little George in the upcoming election. And you all bought it.

And don't give me that crap about the US helping the Iraqui people. Everyone with half a brain knows that foreign policy has very little to do with caring; and everyone who watched the news media knows that they slipped back to that excuse after all their others were shown to be wanting.

	22-05-2003 23:40									#41
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Who's worse. I'm picking the US, which has killed far more innocent people than AQ.

There is no doubt that the US has caused innocents' deaths over the years. Of course we probably should not mention the vast numbers who live in freedom because of the US's actions. We would not want the leftist argument to be exposed for what it is, would we? Now, just how many people have AQ freed from oppression over their existence?

	22-05-2003 23:45									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Especially one, that like most crappy Arab dictatorships, is or has been propped up by the US against the wishes of its people. You'll have to do a lot better than this Oerdin. At the moment the credibility of your avatar outmatches yours.

Aga: I'm really not to worried about how you feel. Your claims that the US is some terrible, horrible place are just groundless so I enjoy making fun of posts where you say it is. It's that simple.

	22-05-2003 23:47									#43
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Since everyone's friends again, how about putting out the reconstruction contracts to competitive tender, or even giving the jobs to Iraqis?

	22-05-2003 23:57									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 There is no doubt that the US has caused innocents' deaths over the years. Of course we probably should not mention the vast numbers who live in freedom because of the US's actions.

Like Nicaraguans, Guatemalans, Salvadorians, Indonesians, East Timorese, etc.

And don't give me the World War II crap. You turned up late, when it suited you, and after the Germans had begun to take the worst of it. Then you helped out the Europeans and Japanese to suit your own purposes.

Hardly a record of selfless charity is it?

	22-05-2003 23:58									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Sandman Since everyone's friends again, how about putting out the reconstruction contracts to competitive tender, or even giving the jobs to Iraqis?

As if that's going to happen. It will be jobs for the boys as usual.

	23-05-2003 00:00									#46
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Nothing like Fantasy land Poly-commies!

Ah, uncle Joe would be proud!

	23-05-2003 00:00									#47
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Agathon As if that's going to happen. It will be jobs for the boys as usual.

Considering how much experience Halliburton has working for Axis of Evil countries like Iran, Iraq, and Libya, I think it's a pretty good fit.

	23-05-2003 00:00									#48
	Inflate your Upload Space

More, more! I must hear more! Agathon you need to proclaim your hatred louder so everyone can hear.

	23-05-2003 00:02									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

*ahem*

	23-05-2003 00:03									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin More, more! I must hear more! Agathon you need to proclaim your hatred louder so everyone can hear.

Only if you come up with some decent arguments instead of posting the same old tired crap. If you can't understand that international relations are for the most part governed by realpolitik, then you really aren't qualified to enter this discussion.

Anyway, how about showing us these vaunted weapons of mass destruction? I haven't seen one yet, and there were supposed to be thousands, right?

	23-05-2003 00:06									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Agathon I said that it didn't matter what Chirac's motives were. My point was that the Ameri-scum weren't much different (in fact their motives were probably worse) and that Chirac was on the right side, albeit for different reasons.

So, Propping up Saddam = right side. suuuuuure.
Time to turn in your commie card.

quote: You can flap on all you like, but this war was waged on fake pretexts partly to make sure that people of limited political awareness, like yourself, would vote for little George in the upcoming election. And you all bought it.

Oh, how I love it when the Truly Enlighted finally share their wisdom with us poor "limited" folk

Sorry, bub, wrong set of assumptions of your part. #1 I did not vote for Bush in 2000. #2 I did not support his crappy little war. #3 I won't be voting for Bush in 2004.

quote: And don't give me that crap about the US helping the Iraqui people. Everyone with half a brain knows that foreign policy has very little to do with caring;

At least my half-a-brain works. Look, this is news to noone. The Bushies find themselves in the uncomfortable position of having the world microscope still focused on their silly war. Now anytime someone takes dump in Baghdad, the news media reports on the quantity and color. They'll simply HAVE TO behave better than Saddam.

	23-05-2003 00:07									#52
	Put an end to popups!

Agathon.

I apparently understand far, far more about realpolitic, international relations, and human nature then you do. You still can't understand why your vaunted communist theory violates human nature and your views of international relations are based up blind rage and bigotry.

Come on and lighten up a bit.

	23-05-2003 00:09									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Have to agree with Agathon, the quality (lack of) and evident outlandishness of some of the arguments posted here justifying Americas actions, both in the context of war and what has happened at UNSC, seem to suggest a point of view that is struggling to maintain its credibility against a combination of logic, reason, common sense, and objective analysis.

For example:

"America is an evil, evil place Agathon. Never forget it is far better to live in crappy Arab dictatorship"

If the best one can do is provide wholly subjective, provincialist arguments, then you are doing little better than the crusaders of Western Europe of centuries past. The Arabs may well have something to say in response to your claim. You are judging another culture, another form of government, another peoples way of doing things, by your own paramaters, which while they may work for you, need not work for everyone.

If you do as I do, and take a step back, view things, not from your own personal love of (in my case liberty) the American way of doing things, then you may well arrive at the same conclusion as I and others have, who are often people who have not been conditioned by cultural pragmatism and patriotism, so that they can now see things in an objective manner.

I know I keep going on about subjectives and objectives, but that is of critical importance here, and all issues of international relations. To those that would say that there is no ultimate objective thus there is only subjective, one must also consider that given a context of a certain number of subjectives, there is a pseudo-objective for that context. Otherwise, we will be engaged in a long debate about the nature of cosmology, which is of little relevance to Gulf War II.

	23-05-2003 00:09									#54
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oerdin :

Like many Americans, you have a deep misconception over Chiracs tactics during the diplomatic crisis. Chirac didn't stir the French anti-Americanism, but rather the pacifism. Sure, the opposition to the Iraqi war would have been much less wide if there wasn't a small-scale antiamericanism already present in the French society. But Chirac's popularity was coming from the fact that he seemed on the highest moral groud (defending the peace threatened by greedy Bush was quite a moral high ground in the eye of the public opinion).

Of course Chirac was after political gain, and most of his barking came from the attempt to create the first new pole of the multipolar world. But he didn't use antiamericanism to achieve it, even though antiamericanism was an asset in having the population more eager to follow him.
As a matter of fact, the Anti-Frenchism in the US has raised much, much more than antiamericanism in France. The raise of Antiamericanism here was about unsignificant.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Chirac was doing anything in the issue for moral reasons. The idea of Chirac taking risks to "save the peace" is about as stupid and naive as the idea of Bush taking risks to "save the Iraqi people". Both leaders acted out of political interests.

	23-05-2003 00:12									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

"I apparently understand far, far more about realpolitic, international relations, and human nature then you do. You still can't understand why your vaunted communist theory violates human nature and your views of international relations are based up blind rage and bigotry."

You evidence for this "communist theory" is? As for it violating human nature, that is another story, but I feel you may be referring to Stalinism there. Blind rage and bigotry? Where is your evidence. It would appear that your reasoning is based on prejudices and misconceptions, as well as plenty of strawmen, ad hominems, and the odd ad hoc. Begone cretin.

"Come on and lighten up a bit"

If I may be so presumptuous to speak for Agathon, it is hard to "lighten up", when we are dealing with issues of wars, the victims of war, and the future being dictated by these policies.

	23-05-2003 00:15									#56
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Well, it didn't take long for this to turn into the usual shitfest.

-Arrian

	23-05-2003 00:16									#57
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The thread mentioned France. It was inevitable.

	23-05-2003 00:17									#58
	Remove this text

Too bad truth and reality aern't playing into it.

But you guys never bother with that!

Viva Castro!

	23-05-2003 00:18									#59
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: As if that's going to happen. It will be jobs for the boys as usual.

Yeah, probably. I've yet to hear a convincing argument for awarding the contracts to American firms only, the only one I've heard are that French, German and Russian companies are somehow an 'evil' presence that Iraq should be protected from.

	23-05-2003 00:18									#60
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I see a chill order is needed,

Some of you people can't seem to argue with out making personal insults. I think I'm just going to ban you the next time I see it... and when you aren't able to post, just PM me and we will "CHAT ABOUT IT"...