23-05-2003 20:48									#1
	Civ-specific strategy: Germans Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ok, let's get the ball rolling. The basic point of this thread is to explore the various ways the human player can best use the Germans to win, under any victory conditions.

The first question is, what to do with the Germans in the early game?

If you are playing against few civs, the answer to me seems obvious: take out your neighbors with an archer rush. That keeps 'em good and crippled, and maybe you can wipe them out and pull an "Arrian's Deception".

But what if you're surrounded by swarming expansionists? How do you keep up with tech? REXing? Culture?

Basically, I'd like everyone's input on their first moves as the Germans, what land they hope they find or can live with, what wonders/improvements they aim for, the amount of military activity prior to the medival era and the basic approach towards Germany's neighbors.

On a huge map with max # of civs, my early warfare has consistently failed. It's bogged me down in terms of development and I remain outstripped in research and culture. Also, my warfare is effective but not effective -enough-. So I'd like some pointers.

	23-05-2003 21:10									#2
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One word: Archers.

I'm just finishing up a great game as Germany, actually.

Lots of ultra-early archer wars (not conquest, but harrassment & trying for GLs) followed by continent-cleansing mounted rush. Long build phase... and now I have Panzers.

-Arrian

	23-05-2003 21:12									#3
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BUT... how to deal with the war weariness? Ok, I guess war weariness is not an issue if you wait 20 turns to reattack.

How many archers with how many accompanying spearmen?

Who is your first victim?

	23-05-2003 21:16									#4
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quote: Lots of ultra-early archer wars...

Note the words "ultra" and "early." In other words, long before republic is even available.

Second, I think you may need to stop assuming that republic is always the best choice. In my game, I did go the republic route and was able to deal with WW via luxuries, the luxury slider, and my ability to wipe a civ out quickly if I needed to (though I didn't really want to, more leaders if I take my time).

First victim? Well, I guess the first civ whose settler team steps in front of my archer.

-Arrian

	23-05-2003 21:21									#5
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Huh.

I assume you mean "stop assuming Monarchy is the best choice" (that's what I have been assuming).

How do you cope with being surrounded by, say, 5 expanionists? Attack their scouts when you see 'em?

	23-05-2003 21:31									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian One word: Archers. I'm just finishing up a great game as Germany, actually. Lots of ultra-early archer wars (not conquest, but harrassment & trying for GLs) followed by continent-cleansing mounted rush. Long build phase... and now I have Panzers. -Arrian

When I saw this thread I was already thinking what was the first thing I was going to say, and it was precisely that: "One word: Archers".

Germans are THE archer rush civ par-excellance. Be prepared from some very quick early warmongering, hopefully allowing you some breathing space so you can expand easily.

My other advice is to take advantage of those cheap libraries for cultural/science reasons. You'll need them. I'm starting to like scientific civs more and more just because of the cheap libraries...

	23-05-2003 21:35									#7
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Given that I almost never use Spearmen in my Archer rushes, my vote is for China as the best Archer-rush civ. Sure, it's sometimes useful to have a Spearmen defending your stack when assaulting the enemy capital, but that pales in comparison to the speed of industriousness (Archer rush!).

Of course, Industrious makes everything better and is better than everything, so why am I even arguing?


Dominae

	23-05-2003 21:36									#8
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I have found that my neighbors are cautious or annoyed right off the bat, before I do anything, when playing as the Germans. Why is this? Is it because of Germany's aggression level (even when I'm being passive, not agressive)?

	23-05-2003 21:38									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Given that I almost never use Spearmen in my Archer rushes, my vote is for China as the best Archer-rush civ. Sure, it's sometimes useful to have a Spearmen defending your stack when assaulting the enemy capital, but that pales in comparison to the speed of industriousness (Archer rush!).

Well I'd have to agree with you there. How to properly do it as the backwards Germans though?

	23-05-2003 21:47									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth How to properly do it as the backwards Germans though?

The key to the Germans is that they have early access to all the Ancient age "war toys", except for Horsemen. With Iron Working one tech away, you can see Iron quickly and plan your warmongering in consequence. Thus, although the Germans are fine at Archer rushes, their true power lies in being able to select between this avenue or Swordsmen (probably via upgrades). The fact that Spearmen are also available from turn one is a nice effect, too. So, you can either push hard with Archers (if they look like they'll do some damage), or wait for Swordsmen and do some real conquest. Other Scientific civs have this option too if they research Warrior Code first, but that seems sort of weird if you ask me, mainly because they do not get cheap Barracks(or faster upgrades) like Germany, so any "rush" is actually a big investment.

Note that none of the units Germany has access to in the early-game trigger its GA. Compare this to, say, the Persians, which need to be a lot more focused if they are to be used "properly".


Dominae

	23-05-2003 22:05									#11
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I totally agree that China is the best pure archer rush civ, and that Germany's main advantages are spearmen right away and, more importantly, their ability to get IW right off the bat.

Germany has some flexibility with their GA. In my game, I triggered it via buiding (errr, rushing) Sun Tzu, after having built (err, rushed) the Great Library.

But w/o the Library, one could wait for Newton's. Or wait for Panzers, but I think that's a bit late.

-Arrian

	23-05-2003 23:23									#12
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After Archer fun is done, I usually like to produce about 30 Horsemen and race across the continent in caravan-joyrides.

	24-05-2003 01:15									#13
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I've never met with any success with Germany at all. I play Huge maps, max civs, and by the time the civs have grown close enough together to have foot units be effective combattants, everybody has spearmen/swordsmen/horsemen. Is an archer rush still effective in a climate like that? I've never tried one (except very rarely when I start within a dozen or so spaces of an enemy capital) because it looks suicidal to me.

	24-05-2003 01:23									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ubergeek I've never met with any success with Germany at all. I play Huge maps, max civs, and by the time the civs have grown close enough together to have foot units be effective combattants, everybody has spearmen/swordsmen/horsemen. Is an archer rush still effective in a climate like that? I've never tried one (except very rarely when I start within a dozen or so spaces of an enemy capital) because it looks suicidal to me.

This has been my experience as well. I've recently started up and then abandoned 3 or 4 games in which I took out the Russians, or the Celts, or the English, with archer rushes and later horsemen, but I end up with so much bad blood against me that it was hardly worth it...

...I intend to try swordsmen conquest next. I haven't had an all-swordsmen war in a long time. I seem to have had ill luck procuring iron as the Germans, for some reason, recently.

	24-05-2003 02:10									#15
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Build Queue

What do you start building right off the bat? I know the answer will be different depending on the number of neighbors, so let's assume anywhere from 2 to 6 or more.

For an archer rush, would you build warrior-barracks-archer-archer-etc., or warrior-archer-archer-barracks? Where do settlers and workers get thrown in?

Assuming you're waiting for IW or HR to get your war on, what do you build first?

	24-05-2003 07:41									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Germany has some flexibility with their GA. In my game, I triggered it via buiding (errr, rushing) Sun Tzu, after having built (err, rushed) the Great Library. But w/o the Library, one could wait for Newton's. Or wait for Panzers, but I think that's a bit late. -Arrian

That sounds rather inflexible to me! The Germans absolutely have to get the Great Library for an efficient win.

The best way to do this is nonstop warring using every means available (archers, swordmen, horsemen) until a leader is produced. The Germans are the only civ with which I would consider rushing the Great Library before the Forbidden Palace or Pyramids.

	24-05-2003 10:36									#17
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The Great Library is not a necessity for the Germans for an efficient win IMO. A GA with Newton's can give the German player a huge lead in the early industrial age paving the way for cheap factories, hospitals, ToE and Hoover. And Panzers are just around the corner... sure, getting the GL is sweet but a good tech dealer can stay on top and rack up $$ anyways thanks to cheap libraries.

	24-05-2003 11:58									#18
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Great Library expires in the industrial age.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

	24-05-2003 13:24									#19
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Actually the GL expires with Education, a mid-Medieval tech.

	24-05-2003 13:43									#20
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Expiration is irrelevant in regard to triggering golden ages with wonders. Also note that when you build a wonder, the game checks captured wonders as well as ones you've built yourself when evaluating whether a GA is triggered. So depending on where the Great Library ends up, capturing it and building another wonder can sometimes provide an alternative way of triggering an earlier GA. (The same can go for Newton's if someone else ends up building it.)

On the other hand, Germany can make exceptionally good use of its late UU-triggered GA. One of the biggest obstacles to large-scale conquest with tanks is building enough of them quickly, since nothing else can upgrade to tanks. If Germany hasn't used its GA yet, though, they can take advantage of it to crank out panzers significantly more quickly. A mobilized Germany in its golden age can be truly awesome as a late-blooming warmonger.

That's not to say that I like Germany's GA situation. I don't. But it's not quite as bad as it appears to be at first glance.

	24-05-2003 14:03									#21
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I like playing Germany, but I usually rename them "Preussians". Excellent for both early and late warfare and very good in between.

They are also evil as your neighburs. I remember a mini-tournament, (or was it Mark G's official Apolyton Tournaments?), where the human civ was stuck on a small island with no resources and shared it with the Germans. I tried an archer rush after building my 3rd city and attacked with a stack of 10 archers, 1 warrior and 1 spearman. Autorazed 1 city and killed some unit in the open, then reached Berlin with 5-6 of my archers left. All of them died. Then the Krauts counterattacked with 2 archers. They parked on a mountain beside my border city. I tried to attack them with my only archer who died, then they killed the defending spearman and took my city. They moved on and my capitol was only defended by a warrior - Game Over

Now, this was my 500th post!!!

	24-05-2003 19:44									#22
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Olaf, I believe in the scenario you're describing the human player was playing the Germans, against the Russian AI (on the home island).


Dominae

	24-05-2003 22:22									#23
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Expiration is irrelevant in regard to triggering golden ages with wonders. Also note that when you build a wonder, the game checks captured wonders as well as ones you've built yourself when evaluating whether a GA is triggered. So depending on where the Great Library ends up, capturing it and building another wonder can sometimes provide an alternative way of triggering an earlier GA. (The same can go for Newton's if someone else ends up building it.) On the other hand, Germany can make exceptionally good use of its late UU-triggered GA. One of the biggest obstacles to large-scale conquest with tanks is building enough of them quickly, since nothing else can upgrade to tanks. If Germany hasn't used its GA yet, though, they can take advantage of it to crank out panzers significantly more quickly. A mobilized Germany in its golden age can be truly awesome as a late-blooming warmonger. That's not to say that I like Germany's GA situation. I don't. But it's not quite as bad as it appears to be at first glance.

I am not so usually fond of military GAs. My favorite time for GA are when there are new and vital improvements, that's why I like my GAs in the mid-medieval or early industrial age lapse. Frankly taking advantage of GA during a building phase gears me up for war later on. I can build tanks in 2-3 turns in most major cities by the time I get motorized transport without mobilizing.

	24-05-2003 22:51									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre I like playing Germany, but I usually rename them "Preussians". Excellent for both early and late warfare and very good in between.

Just to be a pain...

"Pruessians" would be an alternate form of "Prüssians," however, that's the incorrect way to spell that in German, since in German it's actually "Prußen" which would be "Prussen" in English, which was simplified to "Prussian."

	26-05-2003 13:00									#25
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Trip , there is an opening for a Minister of Grammar and Spelling on the Mohammed Al-Sahaf team. He who gets the post will improve foreign relations by pointing out bad grammar and spelling in other teams.

	26-05-2003 13:16									#26
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Trip , there is an opening for a Minister of Grammar and Spelling on the Mohammed Al-Sahaf team. He who gets the post will improve foreign relations by pointing out bad grammar and spelling in other teams.

Surely you mean that there are absolutely no openings of any kind for a Minister of Grammar and Spelling on the Mohammed Al-Sahaf team, and never will be. Such a position does not and will not exist.

	27-05-2003 12:58									#27
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I usually go for a swordsman rush(obviously assuming you have iron)..Archers to me seem alittle too weak, again if you have lots of them then, the outcome will be very different. But i prefer a smaller but individually stronger force to a bigger, individually weaker one.

	27-05-2003 13:52									#28
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Nakar Gabab, are you after that post?

Infidel!

	27-05-2003 18:52									#29
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Neighbors

After several galling poor attempts to get going as the Germans, I have come to this conclusion: it is best to be near the Europeans and Asians, not the Europeans and "Mid East" civs. With the "Mid East"eners around, there's just too much scientific competition, not to mention potentially too many civs!

The Celts can be useful allies to have in your many German wars, but I would be wary of letting them reach the industrial age. With 7 turns to go until a cultural victory, the Celts have declared war on me, and I am not quite in a position to conquer them in 7 turns... the sheer number of elite knights and veteran cavalry they have produced is galling, not to mention the defending rifleman.

Normally I might "pshaw" this force, except that I have 7 turns to wipe them out in, and my forces are spread incredibly thin.

If you have an opportunity to cripple the Celts early on, do so! The only threat that I have faced from the others was in terms of trade/development.

NOTE: It is also a good idea to cripple the weak Russians before their empire gets too big. Take on the English at any time - no matter what size they are, their empire seems ripe for the picking...

	27-05-2003 19:05									#30
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One of the good things about playing Germany with cultural linking on is the weakness of your neighbors (militarily, France has strong traits at least). This makes you a wolf amongst lambs. Harrass the hell out of them. No mercy. Steal their workers, break their terrain improvements, and bop their settler teams.

DaveMcW says that the Germans are pretty much the only civ he'd use an early great leader to rush the GL with. Well, in my current game, I did just that (though the 1st leader was used on the Pyramids, it was #2 that built the GL). Still, I don't think they're that inflexible, due to Newton's.

On Huge maps, well, the Germans are going to have trouble. Archer wars are less effective. Non-industriousness hurts more. They aren't especially good for the "build first, fight later" approach.

-Arrian