24-05-2003 01:53									#31
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Both DD and Imran have touched on this. We do tend to cut people who live under totalitarian regimes a lot more slack, simply because they aren't responsile for what their government does and because we are more or less powerless to change their actions.

The one main example I can point to as an excetion is South Africa, and that's because it was "democratic" for white people, and thus the government could be pressured by pressuring the whites (by boycotting them).

It is a waste of time to protest the government of Saudi Arabia. They will ignore us and their people have no influence. The same with every other Arab government.

Additionally, the Palestinians also have the added blessing of waging a liberation struggle. Legally and moraly, we accept that liberation movements can act in certain ways that we would otherwise find odeous. Certainly, when they attack civilians, we deplore their actions. When they attack IDF soldiers, it's fair game.

	24-05-2003 01:56									#32
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quote: I understand that, but if anyone claims to be concerned for the welfare of the Palestinians, they should want to call more attention to those who are the worst perpetrators, surely.

Ah, thus arises the question. Who are the worst perpetrators? The ones that originally kicked them out of their homes, or the ones treating them badly after they were forced to relocate? I'd say the former, personally. It is understandable to be angry against a vast number of refugees who want to enter your country at the same time. Just about every country would be.

	24-05-2003 01:57									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm concerned about the harm done to the Palestinians by a so-called DEMOCRACY! Yeah, the other Arab states are a bunch of ******, but that's no news... they are a bunch of brutal dictatorships. You think Saudi Arabia would get nearly as much blame for what the US is doing at Guantanamo? NO, because we are expected to act in a higher standard because we are an advanced democracy! It's as simple as that.

So as long as harm is not being done by a democracy it doesn't concern you at all?

quote: Because the Palestinians we are talking about live in the West Bank and Gaza. AFAIK, those areas aren't controled by any Arab state.

So you only care about what is happening to Palestinians in those specific areas? If that is the case then how can you claim to be concerned about the Palestinian people as a group? They don't count as Palestinians unless they live in the West Bank and Gaza?

	24-05-2003 01:58									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Perhaps I missed it, but I doubt it. If you really think you and those one your side of this issue are being fair, then I challenge you to find a quote in which you criticise Arab treatment of Palestinians.

You've missed it. Frankly, no one supports the treatment that Palestinians get at the hands of other Arab governments. Even among Arabs I knew in the US, Palestinians are looked down upon as refugees, scavangers, etc., which isn't to say that they weren't 100% verbally behind the Palestinian struggle.

	24-05-2003 01:58									#35
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Legally and moraly, we accept that liberation movements can act in certain ways that we would otherwise find odeous.

I call BS.

	24-05-2003 02:01									#36
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quote: So as long as harm is not being done by a democracy it doesn't concern you at all

If it ain't done by a democracy, then I have no power to change it one bit.

quote: So you only care about what is happening to Palestinians in those specific areas? If that is the case then how can you claim to be concerned about the Palestinian people as a group? They don't count as Palestinians unless they live in the West Bank and Gaza?

Because I can't do anything about other Palestinians. The leaders of those countries are dictatorships. However, if I make Israel seem bad in world opinion, the people might elect someone that WILL change things.

In fact, this HAS HAPPENED! What do think the election of Barak was about?

I pose a question to you. How can you be concerned about humanity as a group if you don't care about those dying in Africa by civil war and disease? They don't count as humans unless they live in North America, Europe, Oceania or Asia?

	24-05-2003 02:01									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia So as long as harm is not being done by a democracy it doesn't concern you at all?

Did I write that??? No, I did not! I have only so much time to fight my battles. I have to chose the ones that might be won. Protesting the treatment of Palestinians in Egypt is about as effective as protesting the Moon going around the Earth. Protesting dictatorships is simply an excercize in futility.

	24-05-2003 02:02									#38
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Both DD and Imran have touched on this. We do tend to cut people who live under totalitarian regimes a lot more slack, simply because they aren't responsile for what their government does and because we are more or less powerless to change their actions.

I wouldn't say powerless. If you guys put half as much energy into protesting the actions of the Arab governments as you put into protesting the Israeli govt, it would put pressure on the US govt to act. Hey, you might even get a few more conservatives on your side while you're at it.

	24-05-2003 02:03									#39
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quote: I call BS.

Really? Look at the support given to the Chechyns and the Afghanis when the Soviets invaded.

Che is right. We give more leeway to liberation movements.... though of course for the longest time, Palestinians were demonized in the US.

	24-05-2003 02:04									#40
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It is a waste of time to protest the government of Saudi Arabia. They will ignore us and their people have no influence. The same with every other Arab government.

Rant mode on.

Even if this is true (and I feel it absolutely disgusting that instead of using a corresponding energy to each problem, you instead focus on the "easiest" to solve rather thqn on the most severe, to the point of blowing it out of proportion), and even if the Israeli government will listen to you when the Arab government did not (did protesting Bush help with aything either? Sometimes, the point of protesting isn't to get the government to change it's mminds, but to inform people), could not a protest help give support to the people in SA who wish to gain those democratic reforms and work for them - ordo you think they don't exist?

Do you not thik it worthwhile to protest in support of the people of Iraq (or Iran or SA or whereever) and against the ruthless governnments that exist there to let the know that there are people who stan dby and support what they want to accomplish? I know I think it is.

Rant off.

	24-05-2003 02:04									#41
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quote: If you guys put half as much energy into protesting the actions of the Arab governments as you put into protesting the Israeli govt, it would put pressure on the US govt to act.

Act in what way? Boycott? Yeah, that worked well against Saddam .

We aren't going to invade because they treat the minority badly... if we were, we'd have to invade most countries (Hell, maybe even our own).

	24-05-2003 02:07									#42
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quote: could not a protest help give support to the people in SA who wish to gain those democratic reforms and work for them

What are they going to do? Seriously. When you are under the control of a dictatorship, the best way to change it is from the top. You talk to the guy in charge and tell them how good it is to have these things.

	24-05-2003 02:08									#43
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Caligastia So as long as harm is not being done by a democracy it doesn't concern you at all? Did I write that??? No, I did not! I have only so much time to fight my battles. I have to chose the ones that might be won. Protesting the treatment of Palestinians in Egypt is about as effective as protesting the Moon going around the Earth. Protesting dictatorships is simply an excercize in futility.

You aren't necessarily protesting the dictatorships themselves so much as the US govt for supporting those dictatorships. Why not protest the US govt for supporting the Saudis and Kuwait?

	24-05-2003 02:08									#44
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I never tire of stating that the Arabs are as much enemies of the palestinains as the Jews. Obviously Caligastia, you aren;t reading well enough.

As for the other ongoing discussion. I agree that a state that keep saying :"hey, look at us, we share your values, love us!", well, should act like they did share our values. as for the Arabs, I think people have to realize all the talk about fighting for the Palestinains is utter crap. They can't give a rats ass about them: they are a cause celebre at best for most Arabs, sysmbols fo their impotence vis a vi the West, but they have no real love for the people.

The main reason to solev the current porblem is to give feedom to the plaestinians (1st consideration), Security to the Israelis (2nd) and to remove a cause celebre abused by other Arabs (3rd).

	24-05-2003 02:09									#45
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Hmmm...sorry I can't reply to everyone right now, I have to go. Hopefully someone else will pick up where I left off.

	24-05-2003 02:09									#46
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quote: No one is denying you're more civilized. You just aren't as civilized as you should be.

It's rather naive to expect the Israelis to live up to the highest standards of civilzed behavior while locked in a struggle for survival with a downright barbaric enemy. It's a sad fact of life that one must often become more like one's enemy in order to defeat them. Criticizing the Israelis for their treatment of the Pals while letting the Arab states off the hook is akin to criticizing the less than humane behavior of the US in WWII while making no mention of the fascist evil they were fighting.

	24-05-2003 02:13									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: could not a protest help give support to the people in SA who wish to gain those democratic reforms and work for them What are they going to do? Seriously. When you are under the control of a dictatorship, the best way to change it is from the top. You talk to the guy in charge and tell them how good it is to have these things.

Because SA individuals would never push for reforms or move against extremism?

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansa...ews/5841225.htm
http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm...storyID=2785876

	24-05-2003 02:13									#48
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quote: Criticizing the Israelis for their treatment of the Pals while letting the Arab states off the hook is akin to criticizing the less than humane behavior of the US in WWII while making no mention of the fascist evil they were fighting.

Why should I make mention of fascist evil when discussing how wrong the US was in bombing Dresden? What the fascists did has no bearing on that, and we were supposed to be the good guys. Bombing Dresden didn't do anything (it didn't shorten the war). I don't see why in EVERY debate, I have to talk also about the bad things the other side did as well!

	24-05-2003 02:16									#49
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"Two wrong's don;t make a right" exists for a reason. there is no greate act of moral subjectivity than that. Draek, when you begin to discuss the evils of Palestinian terrorism, do you think it is important then to discuss the evils of the Israeli occupation as well? I know it happens all the time, but do you think its valid? Fron you previous statement, I guess you do think its valid, in such a situation, no?

	24-05-2003 02:19									#50
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quote: Because SA individuals would never push for reforms or move against extremism?

Because SA individuals have any impact on the leadership?

	24-05-2003 02:25									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Because SA individuals would never push for reforms or move against extremism? Because SA individuals have any impact on the leadership?

Well, they certainly won't if every time someone considers it, people just roll there eyes.

Change starts with the acts of single people.

	24-05-2003 02:29									#52
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Yes, they d. But in SA, those individual acting are most likely to be islamists, not people firendly to the West. The day the US stops supporitng the sauds and Mubarak is th day we start getting movement towards liberal leaning arabs trying to change their states.

	24-05-2003 02:40									#53
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quote: "Two wrong's don;t make a right" exists for a reason.

I never said Arab misbehavior makes Israeli actions "right". I just understand the frustration Israelis must feel when they are treated as the most evil people on earth while their enemies avoid criticism while committing actions more heinous than their own.

quote: Draek, when you begin to discuss the evils of Palestinian terrorism, do you think it is important then to discuss the evils of the Israeli occupation as well? I know it happens all the time, but do you think its valid? Fron you previous statement, I guess you do think its valid, in such a situation, no?

Yes, it is very valid. You can't truly understand Palestinian terrorism unless you also understand the Israeli occupation, just as you can't really understand the Israeli occupation unless you understand the greater Israeli-Arab struggle.

	24-05-2003 02:43									#54
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Hmm, should I say we agree???

Why not?

Are you still in Japan? (or did you eve go there yet?)

	24-05-2003 02:46									#55
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I leave on August 2nd. Just mailed off my visa paperwork today.

	24-05-2003 07:21									#56
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 in other arab countries they dont have their houses demolished and their kids killed. really is there any kind of intelligence in this thread despite my own?

Well you better read up on what is happing in Baghdad.

	24-05-2003 07:26									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It's true. Other Arabs as well as most of the rest of the world see Palestinians as dangerous and almost subhuman. Still, so many of them act so poorly (indeed criminally) is it any wonder that stereotypes get created?

There is nothing wrong with this statement. He is telling it like it is.

	24-05-2003 07:30									#58
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 More to do with massive influxes of immigrants who seriously destabilized those countries then any hatred of the Palestinians. Lebanon paid in brutal civil war for Israel's expulsions.

It's to bad that some of you were not around when Jordan removed most of the Palestinians from their country, to the West Bank some 25 or more years ago. A lot of Pals did not make the trip, because, they were just plain shot.

	24-05-2003 07:48									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph It's to bad that some of you were not around when Jordan removed most of the Palestinians from their country, to the West Bank some 25 or more years ago. A lot of Pals did not make the trip, because, they were just plain shot.

Yep.

	24-05-2003 07:50									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Che is right. We give more leeway to liberation movements.... though of course for the longest time, Palestinians were demonized in the US.

che is indulging in one of the more scummy parts of subjective morality by excusing intentional attacks on civilian populations simply because he likes the cause they represent.