 |
| |
|
|
panag
|
 |
MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:28
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by GePap
I am not having it both ways: One thing i am always clear with is sources. Honestly look at the two sites given, the one I posted to, the one Edan posted too. LOOK at THEM. Read what they say, and how they say it. No one can be unbiased when it comes to this conflict, but as we all know from this forum, you can make an arguemnt well or you can make it badly.
All the peole bashing the site as biased: how many of you actually read it? I read Edans site, and besides the poor use of sitation, well, it gives you 2, and most of it is simple argument, without facts. The one I posted, well, it almost all sites, quotes, and may I point out, almost none from a Palestinian source.
For example, in the pro-zionist site quoted, you get the argument that since most palestinians were from newly arrived families, they had no tie to the land, and thus could not become refugees. Well, how mnay Israelis can trace thier families back more than 70 years themselves in that land? So the site is telling me that if there was a war tommorrow, and Eli, Siro, and Azazel were forced to flee from Israel due to a war, because none of them were actually born in the land, that they have no tie to it? That they would NOT be refugees? I am sorry, but not only is that argument totaly undocumented (the law defining refugees says nothing about a time span one must have lived there to become a refugee), but it is CRAP ON ITS FACE!
So no, i have no problem questioning the site Edan gave me, because unlike most people here, I actually read both, and the differences in style, in usefullness are vast, and the "bias" (you actualy mean, its politcal leaning) does nothing to detract from its value, or its effectiveness.
I am finding more and more that poeple here don;t seem to know how to honestly handle sources. If they don;t say what you like, well, ignore them: that is the surest way to a crap arguemnt, and to those waiting to say I want it both ways, well address my comment about the method of quotation: I assume you al go, or have gone, to some sort of higher education, one which calls for you to create research papers: tell me that site does a good job: look at them both as if you were a professor, and tell me which of them makes a stronger case, a case with evidence. Are they equal?
quote:
BTW, does anyone know how many refugees live in the camps outside of Palestine? |
The UN would telly ou, as they handle the camps and must eep the data. it is certainly more than one million. |
ever heard of all the refugees we harbor for years know who fled out of other countries , ever , ever wondered why they come to us , ....  we must be doing something good , ....
"crap argument" , ....  well the ones you read at who knows whatever website that is created for either the purpose of spreading hate or else it has to be written by people who have never ever set foot in the middle east , .....
as for the un ,  they stand for U know Nothing even in these parts of the world , ....
you should read some of the books they give to the people when they arrive , ....
one of the reasons the us is leaving the sinai , ....
|
|
| |
|
|
|
panag
|
|
MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:28
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Panag:
exactly the mindess attituted I am comlaining about
Either deal with the point as given, or leave it alone. Think you are right? Fine, then be smug by yourself, but I am little interested in hearing the same thing you always say, over and over.
This is now, for me, an issue of how one deals with sources; a problem that is becoming endemic in these boards. |
well lets make a deal here , i have 30 days of leave comming up , i let you sleep where-ever you want , diner and breakfast is on me , lunch and plane on you you can use all the vcr's , camcorders , etc you want
i invite you and gnu over , ......
then you can see for yourself what the reality is , ...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
GePap
|
 |
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:28
|
|
Give me a fvcking break! I don;t care if you honestly think that "only people who live there know", becuase the experiences you live through are NOT unique. Countless millions around the world also suffer. Have I had family hurt during this conflict? NO. But pain does NOT make one all of a sudden enlightened, and sure as hell does not give you insight into the minds of the other side, nor somehow teach you history.
I have said the same things to you before, even if perhaps you do not remember them. Suffice it to say (again), that your conceit, that somehow becuase you are there, you have some secret knwoledge that can't be aqiured elsewhere, is false. You have experienced pain and suffereing; I haven't. But that has not made you any better equiped to know how to solve the issue. After all, if your conceit is correct, how could you ever know what the Palestinians think? Have you travelled to a palestinia town or city? Haver you tried to live what they live through? My guess, NO. And yet it seems you seem to think you can know what they think what they should do. Does this ability to know what other can not know apply only to you, and to Israelis, but not to others? Thats is just the most obvious flaw of your conceit.
If yu whish to keep this idea of yours, if you don't care to explore it, challenge it, then, as I said, do me (poor little, unknowing me) the favor of ignoring me, becuase "obviously you know better, from a secret set of knowledge I can't gain" and thus anything you say can hardly educate me, and "obviously", anythign I say "could never teach you anything" since your pain (you think) has been the most potent and important teacher.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
panag
|
|
MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:28
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Give me a fvcking break! I don;t care if you honestly think that "only people who live there know", becuase the experiences you live through are NOT unique. Countless millions around the world also suffer. Have I had family hurt during this conflict? NO. But pain does NOT make one all of a sudden enlightened, and sure as hell does not give you insight into the minds of the other side, nor somehow teach you history.
I have said the same things to you before, even if perhaps you do not remember them. Suffice it to say (again), that your conceit, that somehow becuase you are there, you have some secret knwoledge that can't be aqiured elsewhere, is false. You have experienced pain and suffereing; I haven't. But that has not made you any better equiped to know how to solve the issue. After all, if your conceit is correct, how could you ever know what the Palestinians think? Have you travelled to a palestinia town or city? Haver you tried to live what they live through? My guess, NO. And yet it seems you seem to think you can know what they think what they should do. Does this ability to know what other can not know apply only to you, and to Israelis, but not to others? Thats is just the most obvious flaw of your conceit.
If yu whish to keep this idea of yours, if you don't care to explore it, challenge it, then, as I said, do me (poor little, unknowing me) the favor of ignoring me, becuase "obviously you know better, from a secret set of knowledge I can't gain" and thus anything you say can hardly educate me, and "obviously", anythign I say "could never teach you anything" since your pain (you think) has been the most potent and important teacher. |
 , you can see what you want , i make sure you can travel without any restrictions , .....
|
|
| |
|
|
|
GePap
|
|
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:28
|
|
Nah, do press:
quote:
At least when you go up against a dictatorship you can say the people don't have a say, so they'll support us when we kick the crap out of the dictator... but if the people are against you, that's a quagmire |
That is the biggest porbem: why woudl the people be against the leadership if you went to war with a fellow democracy? that is why fashoda is a great example. The people were the ones pressing for war! They wanted war!. Do you think the Germans in 1914 thought of themselves as non-democractic? they had universal male suffrege (ahd it before the French did)m they had a strong parliment, insitutions, the Parlimets changed hands regularly. Fine, they had a Kaiser, but the English had a king (your argument is based on self-identification. whether you care to call the German systme dmeocratic is unimportant. Did they think themselves so? That is what matters since the core of your argument is based on "shared values"). And wasn't it the Germans standing against the ruthless authoritarianism of the barbaric hordes from Russia? But it did not matter that the type of government the English had, not when the war begun: it was nationa against nation, people against people. if a poeple are your enemy, how they decide to come up with government is immaterial, now isn't it?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Edan
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by GePap
I am not having it both ways:
|
You absolutely are.
quote:
So no, i have no problem questioning the site Edan gave me,
|
And I have no problem doing so either - as I said, it is a worthless site, just as much as your site. But then, my issue with both sites is more fundamental than yours. And I'm sure if someone bothered to spend more than two minutes searching they would find a site that addressed your concerns properly - and no doubt, you would find some other issue with it. In the end, it doesn't really matter, because propoganda dressed up in a tuxedo and cufflinks is still propaganda at the end of the day. Your half assed argument that "my biased site is better than your biased site" falls flat on it's face, and all boils down to "Mine is bigger than yours is" and is about as credible. Both sites are propogandized crap, no matter how much you want to make out that one is valid and the other isn't.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
panag
|
|
MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:28
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yes, democratic values. A belief in human rights and that people should have a say in their governance. The covert ops has no relevance because even the most enlightened country has that. To pooh-pooh democratic values that Western democracies share is selling those values very short.
This is the reason the US and France will never go to war. They may bark and yell at each other, but in the end we share a common bond. We share common values. We have our rough patches, but we are allies. |
hi ,
sure , but for how long , ten , twenty , who knows how many years , ........
"common values" , like the war in iraq -
allies , ..... they hate each others guts but respect one and another , ......
have a nice day
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
GePap
|
|
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:28
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Edan
And I have no problem doing so either - as I said, it is a worthless site, just as much as your site. But then, my issue with both sites is more fundamental than yours. And I'm sure if someone bothered to spend more than two minutes searching they would find a site that addressed your concerns properly - and no doubt, you would find some other issue with it. In the end, it doesn't really matter, because propoganda dressed up in a tuxedo and cufflinks is still propaganda at the end of the day. Your half assed argument that "my biased site is better than your biased site" falls flat on it's face, and all boils down to "Mine is bigger than yours is" and is about as credible. Both sites are propogandized crap, no matter how much you want to make out that one is valid and the other isn't. |
:SIGH:
What is at work hee is an utter misconception of the term propaganda.
Lets say we had a talk about which mountain was the talest, and this somehow was a heated discussion. I say, It everest, and someone else say no, it is some Sea mountain. I quote a figure form a site that says "everest is the higest mountain", and then the other person says "Nope, that number is invalid! Why? Because the site takes a side! Its porpaganda. Well, that agruemnt (your argument) is wrong. Propaganda IS ABOUT FACTS AND ABOUT INTERPRETATION! A nazi site and a communist site may give the very same numbers, and yet view them in utterly different way. what makes something propaganda is not the just the numbers involved, BUT THE SPIN ON THOSE NUMBERS.
The site I found is full of quotes: now, why do i think quotes are important? Becuase you can chekc them out! Look at the very first article given here: the author chose to put in a quote from Twain, one I have seen many times in por-Israeli sites. NOw, how many times does someone who see's that quote think: "hmm, is it real?" I don;t know, obviosuly not to often if it keeps making the rounds. But because the supposed site material was given, someone (gsmoove) was able to go to the source and find out that it was a quote cut apart to make apoint, but one that did not trully represent what the author had stated. Having given a source, somoen was able to verify, and in this case, see that it was wrong.
The site you gave me had 2 citation in all of it, and as I said, the first one badly done. BUt lets say it is well done. You site gave me 1 source that says :hey, only 250,000 people lived there, which of course you then transalte to "empty" (since when are 250,000 an empty place?). The site I linked gave one source for a number, a number 100,000 people higher for the same time preriod (is 250k empty, but 350k not? why not?) and then a number on the eve of 1914. Then it gives multiple other quotes, all from Zionists, about their feelings on the matter, where it pertained to the notion that the land was 'empty'. It gives far more source material to chose from, far more diverse quotes, much more ingo, and most of it from Israelis, form the period. Becuase of that simple difference in quantity, and quality, I think and judge it a better site, not because of it political leaning, BUT BY HOW IT GOES ABOUT MAKING ITS CASE!
Everytime there is an ME thread, cybergnu comes and states he won;t accept Israeli papers becuase they are biased, and constantly poeple say that itself is biased. I agre, that is biased, I read haaretz and find it a trustworthy paper. BUt what you are doing now Edan, calling somehting "propaganda" becase of it feeling, is the same thing Cybergnu does to the Israeli press, and to me, it involves a great amount of intellectual dishonesty and cowardice. Yes, dishonesty and cowardice. You attempt to avoid an issue not by arguing about the interpetaion, but the source, and thus avoid the issue.
Lets say that 250,00 is correct. As I aksed before, is that empty? How many people lived in Sao paolo in 1880? half a million? There are over 14 million people there now. Was Sao Paolo "empty" in 1880, because it did not hold the numbers of people it could in theory hold, given vast changes in gricultural methods, land managuement, building technicques, sanitation, transportation, so forth and so on? And if the numbers I give (which come from an Ottamn scholar, not someone who even writes on the ME issue as a career) for the eve of WW1 are correct, what is your response? do you have one? or do you aim to dodge the question?
Let me repeat it again: There are arguemnts about numbers, and about interpretations. I don;t give a rats ass who gives me a number, as long as I either trust the person, or if I don;t, how they went about getting it, and where I could go get it myself if I trully think it is questionable. To reject numbers because of the political slant of a site is cowardly. I gave you my question about the method of the site you gave me, of how they "present" the facts they give. All you have ever doen is complain that "my site is pro-palestinians and so it MUSt be biased". Well, look at it and give me your problems about HOW it presents its info.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:28.
Apolyton Time is 00:28. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
25-05-2003 19:32
|