24-05-2003 15:02									#1
	Turn 104, 490 BC Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:

- 221 gold, +131gpt (+/- depending on tiles worked)

Check this and every turn to see if we lost some war unweariness due to the killing of troops within cultural borders and therefore must readjust the lux slider.

Urgent questions:

Do we want to switch Tempest to an aqueduct in the production phase this turn?

Military:
- Pound Vox with cats and then attack.

Economy:

Production Phase:
- Rush a temple in Sandstorm.
- Rush a temple in Monsoon, or plan on using the gold to short rush an aqueduct in Tempest?

Rest of the turn is TBD.


Diplomacy:

- Need to respond to ND.

- Discuss deal with Lego: Feudalism + some gold for Theology (in order to get more value out of Feudalism). Were they notified of our intensions yet?

Thread library:
- Standing orders for workers (Orders last revised April 5.)

Last edited by nbarclay on 24-05-2003 at 15:16

	24-05-2003 15:14									#2
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Note: We're actually (well, hopefully) going to kill enemy troops within our territory this turn, so let's see if we lose our negative war weariness this or the next turn.

	24-05-2003 15:24									#3
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Vox moved down off the mountain! That should make our cats a little more effective, and it also means we can use our elite WCs if we want to. I'd say the risk for elite WCs against 1hp immortals on hills in the hope of getting leaders is a good one.

We have the gold to rush temples in both Sandstorm (to get Vox's eastern immortals in our cultural borders) and Monsoon (for a whale and to get the second iron and the mountain next to it in our cultural borders) if we want to. Or we could save our gold and rush an aqueduct in Tempest a little sooner. At the moment, my thinking is in the direction of switching Tempest to an aqueduct during the production phase this turn (foregoing the MedInf it was scheduled to finish) and then short rushing the aqueduct during the production phase next turn. (We should barely have enough gold to pull that off.) I want Tempest big enough to produce 1-turn WCs and 2-turn MedInfs instead of the 3-turn MedInfs it's currently stuck at!

	24-05-2003 15:30									#4
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I agree on the aqueducts. We need culture to capture Voxian towns, but there's still time.
Where exactly did Vox move? To the hills nearby, or to flats?

	24-05-2003 15:37									#5
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A 1hp immortal moved to Tempest 1 and the rest to Tempest 2 (both hills). Vox can now see O.G., by the way. I sent the opening screenshot a little while ago; check your inbox.

	24-05-2003 15:47									#6
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By the way, I wasn't as clear as I should have been earlier. If we go with a 5-turn (counting this one) schedule for Inchon, we can do the Sandstorm temple this turn and still barely have enough gold for the Tempest Aqueduct next turn. (We'd finish the galley the turn after that.) But rushing both temples or rushing one temple and rushing the galley next turn would leave us with insufficient gold for the aqueduct.

	24-05-2003 16:03									#7
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I'm not at home. I've just seen the screenshot in the softhome account.
I think that the reasoning behind their move is to get as much a view of our territory and then whore their world map around.
Well, too bad for us. At least we might get a leader this turn. That'd be nice...

Last edited by Shiber on 24-05-2003 at 16:09

	24-05-2003 16:12									#8
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Vox also cost us three or four shields in Tempest. But on the plus side, in addition to the better odds of getting a leader, our risk of losing a MedInf or two in the attack is significantly lower.

	24-05-2003 16:16									#9
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I'm going to bed now. I'll probably be picking the turn back up around 3:00 p.m. Apolyton/U.S. Eastern time, unless the team decides that a later time would be more convenient. The execution of the Voxian trespassers (or, as Beta would say, their death by food poisoning ) is scheduled shortly thereafter.

	24-05-2003 16:22									#10
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Nathan- could you please send me the .sav after you've finished everything and are ready to click "end turn"?
I'd really like to take a closer look at things.

Oh, and, I can't wait for the Cat shots... *drool*

I think we can do it with only 1 unit lost, hopefully.

	24-05-2003 16:37									#11
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As sometimes happens when I try to go to sleep, my mind started racing. I've noticed that both food and shields are affected by production-phase changes (as should be expected now that I think of it; otherwise, it would open an exploit). If we shift an Arashi laborer to flood plains, we can get Arashi back on a path toward growing and, at the same time, get back a couple of the shields Vox's kicking our laborers off the hills is costing us (thereby reducing the gold cost if we rush an Aqueduct by eight). I'm inclined to do that if we want to go ahead with the aqueduct switch this turn.

Zeit, there's one big problem with sending out an end-of-turn save: PTW has a bug where when you load it, you'd get an extra turn's gold, food, and shields. So what you would get loading the turn would not be an accurate representation of the food and production situation. Do you still want an end-of-turn save given that limitation?

Now to take another shot at getting some sleep.

	24-05-2003 19:14									#12
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quote: Zeit, there's one big problem with sending out an end-of-turn save: PTW has a bug where when you load it, you'd get an extra turn's gold, food, and shields. So what you would get loading the turn would not be an accurate representation of the food and production situation. Do you still want an end-of-turn save given that limitation?

Nathan- whenever you wake up and check back here:
I'm not sure I understood- if you just save in the middle of the turn, and send that file to me- I get and extra turn of production etc.?

I'm not asking for an end-of-turn save, just for a save that was done right before you've clicked the end-of-turn button. Isn't that just the same as a save in the middle of the turn?

Sorry for the ignorance if I'm asking questions with obvious
answers...

And if that problem does exist- I still would like to have it.

	24-05-2003 19:26									#13
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Nathan has to send the turn as received, and then you have to repeat all of his actions.

I'd like one too, Nathan, and then we can compare thoughts after the production phase.

The way you've framed the question, I'd say rush the temples, and wait on the aquaduct. But, more importantly, are we quite ready to start building? I think we should still be producing military units, especially fastmovers.

	24-05-2003 19:44									#14
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Zeit: loading a game that was saved in the middle of a turn results in adding a turn of production to your civ. There's no way Nathan could give you a save that's an accurate copy of what he was seeing right before he hit end turn.
You can reconstruct most of Nathan's actions just by looking at the end of turn screens, though.

	25-05-2003 00:08									#15
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Okay, I'm back. Theseus, the Tempest aqueduct should pay for itself in unit count long before the war is over. You want fast-movers? A WC per turn in Tempest will give them to you, but only with the aqueduct.

There isn't quite as much hurry to the Monsoon temple because we don't have a potential unit deathtrap lined up there. We need the temple eventually to preclude Vox from colonizing the iron between the cities even aside from builder-oriented issues, but it would take Vox a while to build a road to make a colony useful even after they lose their current iron supply (assuming Inchoff works as planned).

	25-05-2003 00:15									#16
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Zeit, it's not so much that you're asking a question with an obvious answer as that you're asking a question with a non-obvious (but still, I hope, well-known in multiplayer circles) one. If the code were written properly, saving and reloading in the middle of a turn wouldn't be a problem. But there's a bug that causes gold, shields, and food to be added when the game is saved and reloaded in the middle of the turn in PBEM games. So in PBEM games, we have to make sure we don't do that.

	25-05-2003 00:16									#17
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I second Nathan on the matter of the aqueduct.

	25-05-2003 00:54									#18
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For the production phase, I'm thinking in terms of:

1) Rush the temple in Sandstorm.
2) Switch Whirlwind to a galley after doing a short rush. If we go for a 5-turn Inchon, a short rush is slightly more efficient than waiting until the last turn to do a rush. For a 4-turn Inchon, it won't matter.
3) Switch Tempest to an aqueduct.
4) Switch an Arashi laborer from a mined hill to an irrigated flood plains, letting Tempest use the mined hill instead of a mountain to get a couple extra shields to reduce our rushing expenses.

If no one objects in the next couple minutes, I'll go ahead with that production-phase plan.

	25-05-2003 01:01									#19
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quote: As sometimes happens when I try to go to sleep, my mind started racing. I've noticed that both food and shields are affected by production-phase changes (as should be expected now that I think of it; otherwise, it would open an exploit). If we shift an Arashi laborer to flood plains, we can get Arashi back on a path toward growing and, at the same time, get back a couple of the shields Vox's kicking our laborers off the hills is costing us (thereby reducing the gold cost if we rush an Aqueduct by eight). I'm inclined to do that if we want to go ahead with the aqueduct switch this turn.

Remember that commerce and food are already counted by the time we get to the production phase. I think this becomes an exploit if we switch the tiles and end up with less commerce/food from the new tiles (in favor of more production) than we already got this turn. In effect that would be like using 'supertiles' that had the maximum food, commerce, and production of any tile in the city radius. With floodplains and hills, that can mean 'tiles' that give 4 food, 5? shields, and 4 gold a turn.

If we keep the commerce/food even, then it's micromanaging and perfectly acceptable IMO. I'm not sure how it would be viewed if we balance commerce and food out between two cities, but I don't think that would be acceptable either. Each city needs to be working tiles that would have covered the commerce and food they received this turn.

I'm somewhat glad they didn't move 8 and steal EotS' mine, which would have thrown off our 1 turn unit builds.

-------------------

I'm all for the Aquaduct, especially if we turn Cyclone back onto 1 turn Workers to get it up to max size quickly. Tempest has the terrain improvements now to be up to 30 shields per turn at size 12. We skip a couple units to build the Aquaduct, but getting them out faster afterwards should mean we have more units overall in 10 turns than we would by keeping to straight units. The added commerce from more laborers will be paying back the rush cost as well (~15gpt?).

	25-05-2003 01:12									#20
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Aeson, food is NOT counted prior to the production phase. During the production phase, each city, in turn, gets its food and then its production. That threw me when I first noticed it, but it makes sense precisely to prevent a "change tiles to get more production while still maximizing food" exploit. In terms of commerce, the tile changes I'm making would have given us at least as much commerce as we actually got, probably more, so I think we're okay there. Certainly, we're not engaging in a deliberate exploit in that regard.

	25-05-2003 01:18									#21
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One more production-phase tweak: accompanying the short-rush in Whirlwind, I'm moving the laborer to an irrigated incense tile so Tempest can work the hill. With a 4-turn Inchon, it won't really matter, but with a 5-turn one, that saves us a little extra gold.

	25-05-2003 01:24									#22
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Production phase completed. Our military is still average relative to Vox. Preparing to fire catapults.

	25-05-2003 01:26									#23
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:rubbing-hands-together-in-anticipation:

	25-05-2003 01:28									#24
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We're going to use the elite WC that hasn't generated a leader yet this turn, right?
Are there any other elite units in our disposal?

	25-05-2003 01:29									#25
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Four hits out of seven shots. All immortals reduced to one hit point; I think one took a ZOC hit in his last move. Executioners preparing to do their work. I'll send in the two elite WCs first.

	25-05-2003 01:31									#26
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The elite WCs got two kills, one losing 1hp and one losing 3hp, but no leaders.

	25-05-2003 01:32									#27
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Now for our vet MedInfs, fishing for new elites:

	25-05-2003 01:35									#28
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Ack, that's right. City by city on food and production, which opens up the 'use the same tile for several cities' exploits instead.

Nice shooting Nathan.

	25-05-2003 01:36									#29
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Executions complete. Three MedInfs took one point of damage each, and two emerged unhurt. No promotions, unfortunately.

	25-05-2003 01:38									#30
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Well, at least we incurred no losses either.