24-05-2003 20:51									#1
	Massive superiority counts for nothing... Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Massive superiority counts for nothing in MOO3!

For umpteen turns, as the Mighty Terran Emperor I have waged war in the Yekub system against the perfidious Ogoch. I have a massive fleet of 250 ships in the system but I can neither bring all those ships to bear on defeating Ogoch fleets of a mere 20-30 ships (the odds are usually 40-50 on my side to 20-30 on theirs and they usually elect not to fight! Not that I blame them!) nor can I assault an Ogoch held planet with more than 40-50 ships of my fleet (which invariably ends up with 100 percent casualties on my side!).

So I ask the honourable members of this forum, how the heck does one manage to win?

From previous threads in this forum, I understand the consensus is that with some highly arbitrary combat rules progammed into the game, such as not being able to choose how much of your fleet you can bring to bear on an enemy fleet or assaulting a planet, it is all extremely difficult. Unless, I can build at some point a 'Death Star' I feel I am snookered!

Live long and prosper.

	24-05-2003 21:38									#2
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The limit on the number of Task Forces is arbitrary, but also an unfortunate consequence of the minimal system requirements. Since combat has to run smoothly even on a low-end machine, the numbers got hacked way down (in an early design discussion, we were batting around numbers like 1000 ships per side!). Here's what you should do:

Pick your 8-9 largest/best non-Transport Task Forces. Pick your 1-2 best Transport Task Forces (the idea is to end up with a total of 10). Send ALL other TFs away from the system (to whichever system of yours has the shortest transit time). I personally recommend two each of Carrier, Indirect Fire, Long Range and Short Range, though you can adjust to taste. Definitely have at least one Carrier TF, though.

This should allow you to bring the maximum number of ships to bear, and eliminate the problem of the computer picking 10 TF's instead of you. You now ought to be able to attack and invade successfully. If, after invading, you find that two Transport TFs vastly overwhelms the enemy defense, you can cut back to one and bring in an extra combat TF.

If one of your combat TFs gets hammered, you can rotate it out and bring in a fresh one from the group you sent to the nearby star. I use this tactic to assault the Orion homeworld, so I can assure you it works quite nicely IF your tech is good enough compared to the other guy. If it isn't, well, you're in for a rough ride.

If you need any clarification, just let me know, but this should help you out. The trick is to not let the computer do the choosing for you if you can help it.

	24-05-2003 21:40									#3
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Oh, and that's also why I modded my files to allow larger TFs. I have a 1.7Ghz machine, so performance is rather less a problem for me.

	25-05-2003 10:27									#4
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How large can you mod a TF before it becomes a problem? (I have a P3, 2Ghz, 512Mb, GeForce2 Ultra)

	25-05-2003 17:41									#5
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with this computer....any size...i had a P3 450 hz 128 mb and never had problens with TF sizes, if i remenber well i could put in combat a maximun of 10 fleets of 18 ships each

	25-05-2003 18:07									#6
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Vince,

I modded to allow Armadas to be up to 50 ships. That's probably too high, as there can be a lot of choking and sputtering when there are 500 ships on my side and 200-300 on the other, but I still like big fleets. I imagine you could do 25-30 and still be okay, though that's a guess. With a really high-end machine, 50 might work (it's all the weapons fire that really drags it down).

	26-05-2003 07:26									#7
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Many thanks once again for your helpful suggestions, Stormhound. I dont know what I would do without you as the manual is hardly of much help!

Incidentally, I only have a PIII type processor and performance time 760 plus turns into the game is causing me to have a book to hand while I wait out the turn! At some point, I guess I had better upgrade! Never thought I would have to do that for this game but I did choose, and do like, to disport myself in BIG galaxies! I like to have a bit of expansion tucked into my belt before I meet up with my rivals.

Anyway, I worked out my own partial solution on combat odds. Thanks to your telling me, Stormhound, that the 'picket ship' you need for a larger formation is actually one built for a 'reconnaissance' mission - it might have been a little less confusing if the 'mission' designation had been the same as the ship 'station' designation - I have finally been able to make 'waves' and 'packs' of ships, more numerous, that is, than the flotillas to which I had been arbitrarily coralled by the MOO3 rules, and my odds have dramatically increased. I am between fights gradually reorganising my ships into larger formations and it is working though I am still having problems working out how to assault a well-defended planetary defence with minimum casualties on my side. I am hoping that developing 'Behemoth' will help.

Oh, before I forget. Say, I lose a spaceplane or two from my carriers. Do they get replaced in the next turn? There wouldnt be much point in building carriers otherwise.

I may say here that for all its deficiencies, well-aired in these pages, the game is absorbing. Worth waiting for. I like all the infrastructural nuances to planet development and I have just got the hang of designing ships, including carriers. Yippee! The diplomatic AI is still, pretty poor, I think. You ought to be able to make at least one dependable ally out there, at least for a while. But I havent met the race yet which didnt want to annihilate humanity in short order. Therefore, all these bonus points for diplomacy, through leaders and institutions and technologies and whatnot, seem to me to be utterly useless. Or perhaps I just dont have the sort of face that an insectoid or crystalline species tends to trust?

Anyway, I am beginning to hope (fingers crossed) that a patch or two really will finally make this a classic game. I do wish they could do something about giving better definition to the ships during battles but I guess that might be a pretty major job?

Live long and prosper.

	26-05-2003 08:22									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Stormhound Vince, I modded to allow Armadas to be up to 50 ships. That's probably too high, as there can be a lot of choking and sputtering when there are 500 ships on my side and 200-300 on the other, but I still like big fleets. I imagine you could do 25-30 and still be okay, though that's a guess. With a really high-end machine, 50 might work (it's all the weapons fire that really drags it down).

A little bit of slowing down may be a good thing. It will allow me more time to issue orders or just enjoy the show. I thought to experiment with this but instead I'll wait for the patch and try playing the game the way it is (hopefully ) meant to be played. As a rule I greatly dislike modding but this is a game that just cries out for it.

	26-05-2003 22:52									#9
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Christopher:

It slows down on faster computers too...I've taken to playing in small-medium galaxies, though I vastly prefer huge ones.

You get your fighters back. Interesting side note: in LONG battles, you can actually get more than one wave of fighters out of your carriers. Doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

Diplomacy is tough, and the AI takes a disliking to people pretty quickly (especially for certain race combinations). It's the price of success.

The ships look a lot better if you zoom in (the + key).

Vince:

The only thing that gets slowed down is the display (not the resolution!)...which means that before very long the battle becomes uncontrollable. I've had the VICTORY screen come up while a couple of enemy TFs were still showing.

	27-05-2003 07:20									#10
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I prefer huge galaxies as well. I have also seen multiple fighter waves (they seem to have a preset "refuel" time).

	28-05-2003 00:58									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 I prefer huge galaxies as well. I have also seen multiple fighter waves (they seem to have a preset "refuel" time).

they have...

there seems to be no upper level of the amount of fighters in a battle

cheers

	29-05-2003 00:03									#12
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Many thanks, as always, 'Stormhound', you are a one-man MOO3 manual by yourself! Infogrames should pay you to answer these questions! Er... I hope you wont ask me to pay for your technical expertise?

Thanks for confirming that attrition of fighters wont mean me having after a number of turns, this great big empty, useless hulk of a carrier. I have given up carrier-building for a while, though. I like the idea of building carriers but my planes are at the moment buzzing around aimlessly while my 'big guns' take out the enemy fleets! I personally cant see the use of space-planes in this game, so far. Anyone find them useful?

I must admit I had never thought of zooming in on the battles, Stormhound! Thanks for drawing that to my attention. Must try it. I guess here it is a case of RTM!

The diplomacy algorithms are, I say for the thousandth time, crap! In real life, as, for instance, between the U.S. and the UK you can have firm allies, whose aims may become divergent at some point but who will band together for the common good against a common enemy, staying wedded for a long time. You wont get that in MOO3! No sirreee! Just open or latent hostility! Therefore, IMHO, without a good patch to do something about it, all the diplomatic paraphernalia in MOO3 are utterly useless. How can I trust the perfidious Klacken with a joint research program if I know that every twenty turns they will declare war on me! That isnt a case for subtle diplomacy on my part. It is just a question of facing crass bullying.

It wouldnt be a bad idea to have a scenario editor for MOO3. Particularly where diplomacy is concerned, you could edit for diplomatically dependable allies, or otherwise, if you preferred, as in the editor provided by 'Alpha Centauri' and 'Alien Crossfire' (whose amalgam is still, incidentally, IMHO, the best space game ever. Though even that needed several patches before it became trully great!).

I am soooo glad to hear that even with powerful machines the game slows down. That makes me feel happier with my machine specs. I think most of us prefer large galaxies for the same reasons; long, massive campaigns and the chance to build up your empire before the aliens try to take you to the galactic cleaners!

Another nagging thing I will mention here. You can save a game but you cant save the 'sitreps' for that game, far as I can see. So when I save a game, because you need at least two hours sleep before you get up to work, well I do, I usually save it with all the adjustments ready for the next turn. That ought to be addressed in a patch.

I will also mention here that having reached 775 in a game where I specified 'short starlines' I have had an 'oh-ph', moment. I dont like 'oh-oh' moments. Who does? I have been hitherto easily able to defend my empire because there have only been these two 'chokepoints' to defend. Suddenly, this big, longggg starline has opened up from nowhere into the heart of my empire! Is that supposed to happen? Will there be more? Groan...

Geez, I am playing at the EASIEST level and everything is still a headache! The harder levels must be for battle-hardened geniuses!

Well, to all the geniuses out there, live long and prosper and thanks again for the INVALUABLE info, Stormhound!

	29-05-2003 05:24									#13
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quote: Originally posted by ChristopherC Another nagging thing I will mention here. You can save a game but you cant save the 'sitreps' for that game, far as I can see. So when I save a game, because you need at least two hours sleep before you get up to work, well I do, I usually save it with all the adjustments ready for the next turn. That ought to be addressed in a patch.

Actually, this is being addressed in the upcoming code patch. I'm surprised you haven't read this in one of the threads yet.

Also, I believe you are being a little unfair to stormhound. We are all trying to give each other the benefit of our experiences. That way, as a collective whole, we can make more sense out of a game that we care enough about to still post on this forum.
I greatly dislike people who pontificate or think they are smarter or better than the rest of us as much as you do but I don't get that feeling from him. You, on the other hand, have been going after him like an attack dog. Is there perhaps some history between you two?

Enjoy the game!

	29-05-2003 05:55									#14
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Funny, *I* don't feel that way about it. I have a way of putting people who're after me personally on ignore. Chris is after the game...and rightly enough so, as there are certainly problems which ought to be addressed. I don't always agree with everyone which ones those are, but then I don't have to.

	30-05-2003 03:55									#15
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You probably don't know that Stormhound used to be employed by the makers of Moo3. However, he was unceremoniously let go a little over a year ago. This is why he knows so much about how the game really works. This is why he is vastly superior to the manual.

Now that the game is out, he is free to disclose all the undisclosable details from before. But perhaps, there are some things which man was just not meant to know.

	30-05-2003 06:59									#16
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There are a lot of things man is not meant to know. (Which is why my sig says what it does, and why I compare game design to the old saying about law and sausage.)

	30-05-2003 07:54									#17
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Please disregard

	31-05-2003 01:21									#18
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I hope that Stormhound doesnt feel I have been going after him like an 'attack dog'. You dont feel that, do you, Stormhound? I would be unhappy if you did!

I am exceedingly grateful to him, and I hoped I had made that clear. If I havent, I hope I am making it clear now! Many thanks, Stormhound! I simply would have given up on the game because of the CD problem I had -the CD started sticking thereby crashing the game - if it hadnt been for his advice to transfer over the music to my HD. So that is what I owe to him. K?

Despite some faults, deficiencies and puzzles, I love the game! I love space strategy games more than any other kind! I am glad I am alive at a time when there are computers and space strategy games! How can life have been any fun before that? BC for me means 'before computers' (and space strategy games)! There are things I would like put right with MOO3 but I have gotten to turn 760 plus playing it in my present game and look forward to playing another 760 plus if necessary to crush the perfidious aliens! As I said, I love the manifold ways in which a colony develops as I like building things - though I also like a bit of a scrap now and then as well, so long as the odds are in my favour! That me is the ultimate gaming happiness! The only real weakness of the game, as I have also said, seems to be the diplomatic AI. You cant, or at least I cant, forge lasting alliances. The alien races either seem fickle or downright hostile. But I can live with that, so long as my battlefleets outfight theirs which, so far, they are doing! Death to the Ogoch and Zdarelek!

From something Stormhound let slip, I guessed he had some connection with the game. I think they ought to have kept him on. The game would have been better for it! Most certainly, we have all benefitted terrifically from Stormhound's advice where are there lacunae in the manual.

Live long and prosper, Stormhound!

	31-05-2003 04:25									#19
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you are in turn 760 and still didn't win? Oh... It must be battle 300 ships vs 500 ships. How could you?Most of players are yelling about low difficulty and you did this thing.
I think that alliens are hostile to harvesters. Yes. But to others... If you don't spy them too much you'd have few problems...

	31-05-2003 05:38									#20
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quote: Originally posted by ChristopherC I hope that Stormhound doesnt feel I have been going after him like an 'attack dog'. You dont feel that, do you, Stormhound? I would be unhappy if you did!

Since he seems to put people who do so on ignore we'll see if he responds.

quote: Originally posted by ChristopherC From something Stormhound let slip, I guessed he had some connection with the game. I think they ought to have kept him on. The game would have been better for it! Most certainly, we have all benefitted terrifically from Stormhound's advice where are there lacunae in the manual.

I tend to agree. I like alot of what I heard about the early game.

	31-05-2003 13:54									#21
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I havent found it easy to invade planets, Raghar. You do seem to need massive resources to clear systems and invade planets.

Earlier in the game I had two serious threats from the alien races against which to contend at once and so had to split my fleets and just hold fast. It took me a longgg time to reduce the threat to the level manageability whereby I could go on the offensive and that only on one front. I have been cranking out ships and soldiers as fast as I can and it has still taken fifty odd turns to disposess the Ogoch from the Yekub system. This has been a problem I had with other games. The AI could always crank out ships and stuff far quicker than I could!

In the largest of the galaxies upon which I am playing my opponents have obviously a lot of systems so I could be playing for a while yet! But this I dont mind for I like long campaigns. Actually, I wish there was a scenario editor whereby one could have a mature empire and go from there. There was the option to start from a mature empire in MOO3. I dont like having to start from scratch and wonder how extensive I can make my resources before the inevitable, hostile confrontation which puts an end to easy expansion.

I do think this game is superior to MOO2 in several ways, incidentally, though that view might offend the purists. One problem I never solved with MOO2 was that suddenly my budget would crash and I would have to mothball ships so I never managed to build up the huge fleets I have now. I am glad the MOO3 budget rules dont have such nasty and unexplained surprises.

Live long and prosper.

	31-05-2003 22:13									#22
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Yes, one thing I've observed about the game is that budget isn't often a problem, or for very long. Money one usually has (and you can deficit spend up to a point, as well), the only question is what one does with it, and I've yet to have a serious problem with that.

	01-06-2003 08:57									#23
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Economy really hasn't been much of a problem for me unless I'm expanding too fast. I just love that idea of starting with a mature empire (ala MOO2). Wish they could add that into the code patch.

	02-06-2003 06:10									#24
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Actually, I was under the impression that one of the things in the code patch was a feature that would allow that...perhaps I'm mistaken?

	03-06-2003 04:20									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Brazuca with this computer....any size...i had a P3 450 hz 128 mb and never had problens with TF sizes, if i remenber well i could put in combat a maximun of 10 fleets of 18 ships each

Obviously you haven't tried a 180 vs. 180 ship battle with lots of fighters yet. Trying to take Orion with 6 carrier armadas against 6 NO carrier armadas brought my P2/400 to its knees.

	03-06-2003 04:24									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Stormhound Actually, I was under the impression that one of the things in the code patch was a feature that would allow that...perhaps I'm mistaken?

One of the announced features is being able to turn the galaxy loose for some number of turns and pick it up later. That's supposed to provide for "advanced start" games.

	04-06-2003 00:18									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Craig P. One of the announced features is being able to turn the galaxy loose for some number of turns and pick it up later. That's supposed to provide for "advanced start" games.

Turn the galaxy loose? Hope I'm not conquered in X number of turns! Hate to see the results of how the AI advances things ( skewed research priorities, DEA builds, colonizing, lots of unneeded ships, diplomatic relations, unrest, economics, etc., etc. ).
Thanks for the info.

	04-06-2003 07:20									#28
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Hello there, fellas! How y'all doing?

Remember I criticised the diplomatic AI?

Well, I have just met the third race in my longgg game, the Einarii. Far more militarily powerful than mine! Now they could give me realll trrrrouble! Dont you just hate those 'oh-oh' moments? I had inadvertently expanded close to their sector so I try to gingerly withdraw and I send them some little gifts and guess what? They complain about several unexplained aggressive actions on my part although I have only just met them and promptly declare war on me! Damn! Or even stronger words to that effect! Good job I save every fiftieth turn I think I may be going back through this handy 'timewarp' to expand in another direction! So strike three for my diplomacy!

On a more philosophical level and commercial level, is it that strategy games (as well obviously as 'shoot 'em ups') are designed to cater more for young, aggressive players rather than mature players like myself who prefer a lot of building, diplomacy and only a little fighting from time to time to spice things up? I havent gotten in this game to use any diplomacy yet worth a dam! In MOO2, you could make more lasting alliances or engage in diplomatic manoevres. The diplo scenes of visiting ambassadors were more fun, too. So, forget about TV making for a more violent society, if world leaders grow up playing MOO3 this planet is in trouble! They may think the diplomatic option doesnt work in real life, either, so why bother? 'Here is this country with whom I have a problem, better declare war and crank out the ships and planes!'

Still, I love the game. I was yawning at work all today and dreaming of galactic empires!

Live long and prosper.

	04-06-2003 17:35									#29
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Yeah, diplomacy got scaled back a wee bit, as I recall...including explanations of why the other empire was ticked at you, which was kind of a dumb thing to cut.

Making lasting relationships IS tough, especially between certain races. Sometimes you've gotta do a lot of rump-smooching, and you have to be mindful of how many of your ships are on their border. Considering the history of the MOO galaxy, a little paranoia is essential. Also, there's a little patch-fixing to come, but we'll see how much it changes.

	06-06-2003 01:18									#30
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In another thread, Stormhound says he did not get his complimentary copy of the game yet. However, he is still able to help people with their version. How can this be?