24-05-2003 23:58									#1
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If you could build or capture only one wonder in th whole game, which would it be?

	25-05-2003 00:13									#2
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Probably Leo's, with the pyramids a close second.

It's really nice to pick up those unit upgrades, and eliminates the hassle of upgrading garrisons and naval units along the way. A very nice wonder.

	25-05-2003 00:16									#3
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Part 2 is here.

	25-05-2003 00:50									#4
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I said HG. Wonders are more important in the early game, IMO, because later on, you can make up for not having wonders by substituting the relevant improvement, or changing governments.

HG is IMO the best early wonder... this my vote.

	25-05-2003 02:52									#5
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I think most people would choose Hanging Gardens for normal games.Even for OCC it can be beneficial.The higher the difficulty level,the more powerful it becomes.Not a game breaker though.Not even in MP.Sure helps though.

	25-05-2003 04:55									#6
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I like Cope's. Doesn't expire, makes powerful SSC.

	25-05-2003 07:28									#7
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last time we had this discussion - we wound up qualifying it as we were in the midst of the OCC fortnights and, well, its kinda tough to win an OCC game without Apollo

that said, HG provides one of the biggest boosts to the early game, and really sets the tone for the rest of the game. I'm also a little surprised that Copes and Leo got votes (and pyramids got mentioned) before any mention of Sun Tzu

	25-05-2003 15:56									#8
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If I could build only one wonder, that would be one with an effect, which could not be achieved with normal buildings. In the early phase of the game HG or lighthouse, later it would be Bach or Magellan. Cause not each game is an island game, I choose Bach.

	25-05-2003 17:28									#9
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* SCG is just kinda curious who the practical joker is who chose eiffel tower

	25-05-2003 19:01									#10
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Always depends on the game...........but I'd have to go HG.

	26-05-2003 02:30									#11
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land based games...HG, its benefits are huge and its 200shields only.....

multi small island world, LH b/c its cheap and vet boats.... or perhaps magellans for the extra movemnt

depends on how much naval conflict you expect to have early i think......magellans is twice the cost but serves your purpose better late, LH is great for that early important island finding

	26-05-2003 02:31									#12
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i must say i like pyramids too, cheap, awesome growth with no restrictions and if you have alot of cities it will save some money all game on upkeep...

the main reason is for the fast growth tho

	26-05-2003 05:25									#13
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HG early gets you that quick boost. And an early boost is such an advantage. Others have their own special nice things, but they can be made up for.

	26-05-2003 11:07									#14
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Michelangelo's Chapel, Pyramids are a close second. I like wonders that never expire.

	26-05-2003 15:38									#15
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Gardens - with no serious competition!!!

SG[1]

	27-05-2003 06:11									#16
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No one 'fessed up to voting for Eiffel? Dang Frogs

	27-05-2003 08:33									#17
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if you could only build or capture one wonder, thats easy...make your opponent build it, and you capture it. Doesn't matter which one...

	27-05-2003 17:25									#18
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Yes, Maximus just captured the Eiffel tower.


If it's a duel, anything but the GL.

	27-05-2003 23:52									#19
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or eiffel tower..... or marco polos haha.....or united nations

	28-05-2003 21:16									#20
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A while back someone built marco on me in a duel after unsuccessfully trying to slip a few diplos in.

RAH
Yes, pretty pathetic.

	29-05-2003 09:08									#21
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really, the worst was someone building GL on me... i guess he was pissed i built suns, gw and mics all in one turn...haha

	29-05-2003 17:27									#22
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You would normally think that the person got stuck building it, but that would take some real stupidity.

	29-05-2003 17:53									#23
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I think in gae versus 6 Computer-Civs Marco Polo is a good choice to get early a lot of money and technologies. I think it's more powerful then the Gardens and expires later.

	29-05-2003 20:37									#24
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but its real easy to make up for marcos.....i like it, and agree it can pay off in a big way, but HG is the cornerstone of any expanding empire....

	30-05-2003 01:45									#25
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As stated by many... In SP, you should be killing the AI soon enough... a fast start is what really counts. So I vote for HG. After 0 AD, you really don't need wonders to win.

	30-05-2003 03:06									#26
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Still , i have seen some poor maps in sp .....there are some challenges out there...but eventually it becomes a domino effect

	30-05-2003 11:47									#27
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Once I understood the game, even a poor map wasn't a challange. Come on, we can win with one city... how tough can it be. GO MP.

	30-05-2003 11:53									#28
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Ming - although I agree in principle - the final outcome is seldom in doubt in a SP game - that does not equate to boring or lacking in fun.
Yes we can win with a single city - but how long did it take us to manage this ...

SG[1]

	30-05-2003 12:37									#29
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True... it is never really in doubt anymore But I didn't say it was boring... just not much of a challange

I remember when people laughed about how IT COULDN'T BE DONE WITH ONE CITY... then I did it. And then Paul came along and blew it away

SP is an easy win... no matter what strategy or limitations you put on yourself.

Thank God for MP

	30-05-2003 18:44									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Ming True... it is never really in doubt anymore But I didn't say it was boring... just not much of a challange I remember when people laughed about how IT COULDN'T BE DONE WITH ONE CITY... then I did it. And then Paul came along and blew it away SP is an easy win... no matter what strategy or limitations you put on yourself. Thank God for MP

I was never able to win with Pauls menu in TOT ( ive heard the same is true for MGE). Ive heard it is possible to win OCC in MGE/TOT, but harder.

And im under the impression that a peaceful, perfectionist win with a few cities is harder than OCC (under non-mge/tot) Is that not the case?

Playing with TOT, and preferring peaceful perfectionist strat to destorying the AI early, and not using a lot of the gamier stuff (oedo years, shipchaining etc) and not knowing every strat, and not having a lot of patience for micromanagement, and occasionally being sloppy (hitting a wrong key or whatever) (which to me is analogous to real world command and control problems)
I still manage to find SP deity challenging.

Now i suppose if i played it constantly i would find even that easy. But frankly i found the whole enterprise somewhat boring before i got to that level of expertise.

I also played Scens, and the TOT games.

Since ive gone to other games, and am now playing SMAC.

I still think Civ2 is a landmark of strategy gaming - i am amazed at how much replayability there is in it, and how many things you can do with it.

But the notion that SP is simply an "easy win" is true only for a small minority of hard core civvers, who either have more intensity, more familiarity with strats due to fora like this, or who have spent more time with the game (or are very good strategists, i suppose).

I enjoyed civ2 for its unique approach to certain historical themes. Once the game reaches the point were it becomes completely abstract, where i lose site of the historical and political and grand strategic issues in a maze of gamey caravan rules, wonder beelines, micromanagement, etc the game is played out for me.