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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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Apologies for the delay in responding....been sorta wrapped up in stuff, and haven't had a chance to come here and hang out!
As to timetables and schedules....having learned my lesson the last time I made some kind of firm (okay, semi-firm) estimates on getting the game complete enough to release for beta testing, I'm not too willing to talk much about it again (not for fear of any massive backlash if I'm wrong, I just....don't like bein' wrong.... )
Things are rolling along at a good pace, however, and in the way of an update, here's a snapshot of where we are:
Sounds: Still lacking in numerous areas, but we've got the biggies covered (main theme & battle music, and we've got some spell sound effects in place). I don't regard this as crucial to the game's early release, so expect these to be added on to fill in the gaps once we get. Man-hours remaining - who the heck knows? The sound effects, we're making ourselves (at--and I'm guessing here, 1.5 hours per, * 130 spells - about a dozen), but for the others, we're buying them as we find good ones. How long does it take to search a database of 2 million sounds? I dunno.
Art: We're done but for the tweaking, as far as I am concerned. Hex and Busta have been *cranking* the goods out at a furious pace, with Hex doing screens and provincial improvements at a blistering pace, and Busta doing the same with the terrains. I'd never have dreamed that it would come together as quickly as it has.
Code-Work: A big black-box of a mystery to me. I put crazy ideas on paper, and the wizards go to work making it make sense to the computer. Man hour estimates here would be a) tough to give, and b) without the context of hours per week devoted to the project, any number I put forth will be meaningless (and being that we're doing this in our spare time, there's no telling how many hours per week we will log, collectively, on the project). Lots of progress has been made, however, with recent additions including (*as Vel goes to the staff fora to do some quick copying and pasting):
* Color-Coded (by faction) border assignments in place. Now, it's easy to tell at a glance who controls what, based on the border color.
* First generation VBP system in place (VBP = Variable Build Points). Up till now, when you "built" a provincial improvement, you got it at the start of your next turn. From the beginning, this was seen as a stopgap measure and I'm glad we got it replaced with the VBP system before beta release (wasn't sure if we'd squeeze that in). The way it works is that each turn (provided a building has been ordered), a province you control generates a number of build points that "go toward" whatever building(s) you're working on. BP's are non-transferrable between provinces, and do not carry over (ie - if you're building multiple buildings in sequence). When the BP's generated = the BP cost of the slated building, you get it (and in the meantime, we've got an "under construction" graphic to display where the building will go). The number of BP's you get per turn is based on the economic value of the province and its current loyalty. The biggest boon that comes from doing it this way is that if you're in no particular hurry to get your buildings, you can order simultaneous construction of stuff. So far, we don't have a means of cancelling a build (that I know of), but I'd imagine it's coming.
* First generation of "Inviso-units" in place. Income is carried by mounted Tax Collectors back to your capitol province (mounted units move two provinces per turn). You don't get the coin till they reach your capitol. They're invisible, so you (obviously) don't see them and can't know precisely where they are, but if they travel thru rival territories (and they might, if it's the shortest path--but not if you are actively at war with them), there's a chance that your TC's could get captured....amounting to free gold for your rivals. As has been pointed out, this provides a subtle "break" on expansion, as far-flung territories, far from your capitol will take relatively longer to make money from, and the risks that you'll lose that money en route back to your coffers increases.
Likewise, Diplomats are handled in the same fashion....it takes time to get your diplomats from place to place (even with magical assistance), and this is reflected using the same system.
Likewise technological innovation. When you gain a tech "level" the benefits are available immediately in your capitol province, and the spread of that knowledge branches out from there to the rest of your Kingdom (in the case of global effects, these still take place immediately--ie, if you gain a tech that gives all infantry +1 on their attack values, that happens as soon as you get the tech...OTOH, if you get a tech advance allowing the construction of a Cathedral, you only gain the ability to do so once the knowledge of the advance has "spread" to the particular province you're looking to build in.
How much remains to be done? Depends on what you mean. Until the game is completely finished? No way to tell, as that will not happen till long after the beta releases, and we're not there yet.
How long until we're ready to beta release? Also unknown....it's more of a feeling than a set of specs. After each alpha release, we play it. If it doesn't feel ready yet, we go back and work on it some more and repeat (which is how the ideas above came to be).
What we don't want to do is to turn out an early beta that feels incomplete. As has been a stated goal since before we got down to business, when you get the game, it will be playable from start to finish, and we'll use your feedback and ideas to continually improve and expand it.
Next alpha build is expected in a matter of days, and we'll see how it "feels" then....
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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I'd have to heartily disagree there, GP! If you but look at this thread (and this forum in general), you'll see a whole lotta openness going on (sporadic, it's true, and that is entirely my fault!)
However, any numbers I could give you would be just this side of meaningless. IF we were working on the project full time, and I could say that we were approximately 500 hours from completion, and were devoting 100 hours a week to the game, then yes. That gives a good estimate.
But if I say we're approximately 500 hours from completion, and I have no firm idea of how many hours we'll be able to log to the project in a given week....the data is not of much use.
But we're getting there, and should have a new alpha by the weekend. 
-=Vel=-
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TCO
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Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
I'd have to heartily disagree there, GP! If you but look at this thread (and this forum in general), you'll see a whole lotta openness going on (sporadic, it's true, and that is entirely my fault!)
However, any numbers I could give you would be just this side of meaningless. IF we were working on the project full time, and I could say that we were approximately 500 hours from completion, and were devoting 100 hours a week to the game, then yes. That gives a good estimate.
But if I say we're approximately 500 hours from completion, and I have no firm idea of how many hours we'll be able to log to the project in a given week....the data is not of much use.
But we're getting there, and should have a new alpha by the weekend.
-=Vel=- |
Disagree. It is still usefull to estimate how much work is left and look at what rate of work is beiung performed or is requred to be performed to get the job done by a specific date. Stop gliding and sliding...
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hexagonian
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Gnawing on your mind...
Jun 1999
time: 23:28
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quote:
Originally posted by GP
I suspect the failure to answer questions is because of embarassment. That is silly. Instead be honest. If you can be open about the project status to a troll like me (and yes, I am deliberately provocative) than you can also be true to yourself. I suspect that is really something that Vel needs and that any project like this needs. |
What a load of crap...
OK, I'll be honest too...You are a troll. This is not to incite a flame war, since you called yourself that name anyhow. For those who are reading this thread, there is no doubt what your true nature is...and I especially love it when 'said troll' saves others the trouble of pointing out his nature.
The project is a lot of work, and providing an accurate estimate is impossible, given the fact that we all are doing this on a voluntary basis. All of us have outside lives to live, and many of us cannot work on this project 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week as if this was a full time occupation. To put in in perspective, many games take 1-2 years to go from concept to full fruition, and this by full time programmers, artists and testers. (Candle'Bre has been in development for a little more than a year - by volunteers.)
The game will be done when it is done. If you have nothing to offer to the project, go out and play something else until this game is done. Goodness knows that there is enough options to fill the time - and it is somewhat pathetic when people feel the need to whine over the status of a volunteer project as if the need to play that game is a life-or-death issue.
Sorry Vel, I cannot tolerate ungracious people - and my comments are not meant to reflect badly on you or our team. You've been more than polite in this - and rest assured, there is a great deal of committment to put out a professional-grade game from Vel, as well as everyone involved with this project.
Last edited by hexagonian on 09-06-2003 at 18:02
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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There are lots of reasons why I have been slow to respond again here, but one thing you can be sure of, embarassment had nothing at all to do with it.
No, chief among those reasons would be:
1) Introspection: I had no desire to write my reply from an emotional point of view. You're looking for information, not emotionalism, and that is what I will attempt to provide below.
2) Structure: The structure of the Candle'Bre Development Team is unlike the structure of a "classical" project, in that we don't HAVE TO have the game finished by any particular date. There are no investors to hound us. There is no publisher to give us grief. There's only a group of guys (and gals), doing what we enjoy doing with our free time. To introduce deadlines into such an environment is to place false pressure on team members (ie - pressures where none actually exist), for if the game as a whole doesn't have to be finished by any particular date, then neither do any of the component parts that make it up.
Could I? Could I start pressuring team members for firm deadline on components? Sure. And what I'd wind up with would be a less-fun, less-engaging, less-creative environment to work in. No thanks. If I'm going to do this (and I am), then it's going to be fun, or it's not worth my time.
I'd also wind up with a smaller group to work with, which is not what I want. Smaller, because nobody wants to VOLUNTEER their time to a project led by a wanna be Darth Vader. I start demanding deadlines from people I can't pay, and I start losing volunteers. I start losing volunteers and the project itself is dimished, because everyone on the team plays an important role in weaving the tapestry together.
The solution then, is simple. If I want to create an environment that's fun to work in, and focuses on the creative process, the very first thing we did was to throw the whole concept of the "deadline" out the virtual window.
No deadlines on this team. No false pressures. In fact (and you can ask any member of the team you like), the words "deadline" and "schedule" have never come up in any meaningful way in any of our team meetings, nor in any of my individual dealings with any team member.
I want the volunteers of this project to spend what free time they are willing to devote to it on the GAME, not on the schedule of the game.
Every minute someone spends "estimating" how long such and so will take is a wasted minute on this team (and a minute that could have gone into making something FOR the game).
We don't need schedules, so we don't use schedules. The word simply isn't in our vocabulary, nor is it in the team's structure.
3) Experimentation: I'm pretty sure that everyone who has been following our efforts knows that this is our first try at this type of thing. What does that mean? Specifically, it means that we f*ck up! We try stuff that doesn't work, and have to go back and redo it, or try something else.
We do that a lot. Less and less these days, but it happens, and WHEN it happens, we shrug it off and learn from it.
In terms of screwing stuff up, I think I have to be the King Daddy of the bunch! I can't even begin to tell you how many times I had to write, re-write, and then re-write the core rules again, cos they simply weren't what we wanted and needed.
And I did.
These days, when we come up with an idea to make the game better, I can usually nail the codification of it on the first or second try, but it took me a while to get to that point.
4) Motivation: I want everybody on the team to be motivated by the GAME, not by an arbitrary deadline. Deadlines are boring and droll. The game is not. Therefore, if we can stay motivated and focused on the long term goal (a public release of the game and then, subsequent improvement), that's much superior than staying focused on having a specific widget for the game out by next wednesday because mean ol Darth Vel keeps hounding me for it.
and finally, there's me.
I'm the real reason that there are no schedules and timetables.
Why?
For no other reason than cos I'm not a schedule and timetable kind of guy. I'm a "follow the stream to see where it leads" kind of guy.
At the end of the day, there is one voice that speaks for Candle'Bre. One voice that says what's in, and what's not in the game, and that is utterly necessary for the project to succeed with any sort of cohesion.
What's not needed in that process is a dictatorial bent, and dispite the "one voice" thing mentioned above, I do not believe that anybody on the team will tell you that they view CB as a dictatorship, cos it's not. It has become the most open, creativity-filled environment I have ever had the pleasure to work in, and I wouldn't change a thing in that regard.
I wish I could tell you, cos I don't like having folks walk away with a sense that I'm not being open and honest.
I'm being as open and honest as I can be, given the information you're asking for.
I don't have it, nor would I ask any member of the team to give it to me. I'd rather have their attention focused exactly where it is....
-=Vel=-
Last edited by Velociryx on 09-06-2003 at 19:10
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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I disagree with the entire premise. What you are essentially saying is that without deadlines and schedules, the project is doomed to fail. The implication inherent IN that premise is that the schedules and deadlines themselves are what motivates the team to completion.
We've been at it for more than a year now, no mention of either, and we're still here (check the alpha build thread, btw, for our first ever screen shot).
IMO, "Project Management" is more of an accounting function than a managerial function, and it works well when everybody is punching the clock. The company has X resources to complete the project, and needs to get it done in Y timeframe.
That works.
When you take one (or both) of those constraints away (no budget, so there's no money to lose, no particular NEED to finish the project in a given amount of time), suddenly the whole project management thing doesn't work so well.
Ultimately, we might disintegrate, and if we do, you will have been proven right. But if we don't....if we succeed doing it this way (which is, admittedly unorthodox from the "classical design" perspective), will it not suggest that we have found another (valid) way?
-=Vel=-
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Leland
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I hope you don't mind if I join in...
The impression I have about computer game development is that it's kind of a hybrid between an "artistic" endeavour like writing a book or composing music, and an "engineering" project like most software projects. I think that the software engineering aspect benefits greatly from proper project management, but the artistic side doesn't really fit into the same mechanical mold. Weeding out bad ideas, coming up with good ideas, balancing, rethinking stuff that doesn't work, brainstroming, etc. are activities that take the time they take and can't be forced.
I gather that in Candle'Bre Vel is the person driving this creational activity, and someone else is mainly responsible for the coding and implementation. Correct? If so, perhaps GPs comments could be directed to that person. (Or figure out who that person might be, if none exists yet.)
Just my 0.02€
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BigRich@home
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Wales
Apr 2002
time: 05:28
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A couple of questions:
GP: How would you set about recruiting volunteers? At the moment we're sprucing up the website and posting fairly regular screenshots and updates here - although I have to admit we did let that slide for a while. I'm sure Vel will chip in if I've missed anything but they're the main points. What else could we be doing? What else should we be doing? Please don't read this as a flippant reply - any advice would be most welcome.
More generally, if you have a group of volunteers, each knowing they have a task to do and each showing tangible evidence of moving that task steadily forward, then what next? Do formal schedules and deadlines really help? Again please do not take this as a flippant response. I fully agree that doing the whole thing haphazardly with no clear goals or end points would be bad, but that simply isn't the case here.
We know where we are with the game and perhaps more importantly we've just reviewed what additional pieces need to be tidied up before we can release the Beta. And for what it's worth those pieces were chosen for their ease of finishability (sp?) , with the idea being to work on the other pieces whilst we're getting feedback from said Beta.
Rich.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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First, welcome Leland! You need never ask if you’re allowed to join in….just pull up a chair and join us! And don’t mind me and GP….we go back a good ways and have been having the same basic discussion since almost day one—which I enjoy, and in fact, which I need! (I think he’s secretly amazed that we’re still here since we’re not doing it the “proper” way, but also cheering us on cos we’re underdogs, and who doesn’t love that?!)
Second, I think there is at least some level of misunderstanding on this issue, and it is my hope that what follows will clarify that.
No. We do not make use of “proper” project management techniques. There are no firm schedules in this group. No constant monitoring of our progress. No demands of “total man hours remaining” from various groups.
Such techniques are useful if you have limited resources and/or a limited timeframe in which to complete a given task (time/accounting framework) (we need to complete project X before dollars Y run dry or the company will go broke!). Neither of those conditions hold true for us. Being volunteer driven, we’re not spending any coin on paychecks, and since we don’t have any investors to please (or a publisher), we don’t have to listen to their rants about getting the game ready by the Christmas selling season. So what’s the rush? Why not take the time and churn out something that’s QUALITY? (or are we so used to the usual slop that it now makes us salivate, Pavlovian-style?)
It cannot be argued that project management is needed from a motivational point of view, either. “Hex, we absolutely need a commitment from you for graphics x, y, and z by next Tuesday, we CANNOT miss this deadline!” (implication: you’re in trouble/off the project if you set us back or slow us down) <--Try that in a volunteer project you run sometime, and let me know the results. My guess: One less volunteer in your project. If your mileage varies, lemme know. Arbitrary deadlines are not motivating forces, ideas and people are motivating forces. I don’t consider myself a strong, overbearing leader, but we’ve got a kickin’ idea for a game. An idea that gets people jazzed up thinking and talking about it. So, my approach is more like: “man, wouldn’t it be cool if we could see what X, Y, and Z would look like together?” And the people who have the ability to make that happen go out and do it, cos it really *would* be cool to see what that looks like together. Not because I’m the iron dictator who said so, but because the game would be better for it. Having done it the “proper” way (on other projects) and the way we’re doing it now, I can report with absolute certainty which works better. The team we have now is motivated by the game, not by the schedule. If it were otherwise, then we (without a schedule) would not be here having this conversation. If it were as GP indicates, “dreaming without a program” then the screenshot I posted yesterday from the latest alpha build would not, could not exist!
But it does, and yet, despite this evidence that we’re making steady progress, we’re “dreaming” and deemed incapable of finishing the project.
Finally, just because we’re not doing it the “proper way” does not mean we have no plan whatsoever.
We know where we are in broad terms (again, not specific man hours because, given the nature of the project, that data is unimportant for us), and we know what needs doing. We have prioritized task lists so that certain things happen before other things, and honestly, that’s all we really need. To get more involved than that is to needlessly complicate the process. Some people might get off on that, but it’s not our bag.
I said from day one that we were going to go about things in our own way. That has held true.
We have and we are.
It’s working for us (much to the chagrin of some, apparently  ), and I am happy to be able to report that. (and frankly, given the steaming piles of *crap* that get churned off the gaming assembly lines each year—interrupted by the occasional gem—I’m rather surprised that there’s a cry to use the “tried and true” methodologies at all, when it is blindingly apparent that those methodologies themselves are at least partly responsible for giving us the aforementioned steaming piles of crap. IF we were doing this with the stated goal of making a steaming-pile-of-crap-game, we coulda rushed any ol’ thing out by last Christmas and told you guys to suck it up, and if that were the case, I’d be all for doing it “their way,” but that’s not what we’re about. It’s not why we’re here.
The crux of the matter is this: Since we’ve decided to do it “our own way” (for better or for worse), since we’re still here more than a year later having been DOING it our own way, since we’re making visible, tangible progress, AND since we’re well inside the parameters of the “normal” game development cycle, isn’t it just a shade early to be saying things like we’re “doomed to fail” or to imply that we don’t really know what we’re doing/haven’t learned anything from the last year and change?
Isn’t our continued existence and progress evidence to the contrary, or is it just a string of unbelievable beginner’s luck that has lasted for more than a year? If it’s the latter, take me to Vegas, baby! 
-=Vel=-
PS: It would be a more accurate description to say that the “Courts of Candle’Bre” is evolving around us than to say that we’re making it. Yes, the nuts and bolts activities are the same with our group as they are with any other….we don’t have a magical code generator (well, we do, and his nickname is DK!).
Anyway, I’m sure the above doesn’t make much sense from the outside, but that’s an accurate portrayal of what’s occurring.
-V.
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TCO
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Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by BigRich@home
A couple of questions:
GP: How would you set about recruiting volunteers? At the moment we're sprucing up the website and posting fairly regular screenshots and updates here - although I have to admit we did let that slide for a while. I'm sure Vel will chip in if I've missed anything but they're the main points. What else could we be doing? What else should we be doing? Please don't read this as a flippant reply - any advice would be most welcome.
More generally, if you have a group of volunteers, each knowing they have a task to do and each showing tangible evidence of moving that task steadily forward, then what next? Do formal schedules and deadlines really help? Again please do not take this as a flippant response. I fully agree that doing the whole thing haphazardly with no clear goals or end points would be bad, but that simply isn't the case here.
We know where we are with the game and perhaps more importantly we've just reviewed what additional pieces need to be tidied up before we can release the Beta. And for what it's worth those pieces were chosen for their ease of finishability (sp?) , with the idea being to work on the other pieces whilst we're getting feedback from said Beta.
Rich. |
I think that one benefit is that you know what to beat the drums on more heavily. In terms of methods, probably just starting threads and getting Markos to post news items is the best. But specifically for what AREA needs help more would be better. Also, some volunteers may only be willing to work on one area, but some may be more flexible. With a schedule and some sort of progress reports, than you can go to work moving people to the areas that need it more. Also, for many people a schedule is a motivating tool. For one thing it means a more clear commitment to completion. And some volunteers prefer to work on a project that they think will get finished. Some don't care and just want to play. And perhaps that is even the case with Vel et al. However, I did not get that impression originally.
The subject is kinda branching a little bit. But you could also consiuder looking for voulnetteers outside of Poly. Other civ sites. Other gaming sites. Maybe even other sites that are functionally oriented (i.e. art sites or programming sites). EVen better, to be honest is gettin people that you know in real life. So Vel's friends in SC, for instance. I would concentrate on keeping the good voulnetters motivated and try to get quality rather than quantity. You are better off with one person who is seriously comitted to the project than ten who don't do much and perhaps even consume resources by needing updates a lot and pulling in different directions at the few times when they work at all.
Don't know if any of this applies to your project, but based on my knowledge of human character and of my own tendancies, I suspect I'm in the ballpark...
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ravagon
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Australia
Sep 1999
time: 13:28
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quote:
Originally posted by GP
Part of the problem is that you all see planning and project management as equivalent to knuckle-rapping. |
Part of the problem with "planning and project management" with an all-volunteer workforce, working in their spare time, is that you simply can't plan and manage in the same way or to the same extent as you might if this were not the case.
It gets done when it gets done, when the designated people manage to put the time and work in, and although it may not quite get done in the time frame in which one wishes to get it done, it will get done within the budget one allocates (if any) and won't lead to large-scale debts due to delays, nor will there be a need to compromise ones ideas simply in the name of getting it out on time.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:28
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GP, I do believe you have hit the nail squarely on the head.
I've worked on lots of volunteer projects which did have project management and found them way prefereable to those that didn't.
Preference.
I think that's really what it boils down to. My preferred methodology differs from yours in that I chaffe under tight schedules and arbitrary deadlines that serve no real purpose, and you prefer the structure.
Despite your contention to the contrary, I would submit that it doesn't make either of us wrong....it's just two different ways of approaching the same beast.
I don't view this as a feat of engineering requiring precision and planning. That's part of it, yes. But the heart and soul of the project is a creative enterprise, and the muse does not care what time it is any more than it cares about arbitrary deadlines and due dates.
The muse cares about the art (and at this point, I have no doubt...each and every member on the team is an artist of exquisite talent....some of the solutions our coders have come up with are....magnificent....pure art!). The story. The magic that is woven into the fabric of what we're trying to make.
That's not something you can pin down to a schedule. It happens as it happens. If you try to rush it or force it, it'll show, and I refuse to allow that to happen.
-=Vel=-
PS: more candy is on the way....we're close to completion on our next generation of terrains, and have begun implementing some of those "Acts of Fate" that there has been some discussion and worry over....hopefully the screenie soon to be posted will a) give an idea of the kinds of strategic choices the Acts of Fate will introduce, and b) allay concerns that it'll wreck or take something away from the game. We're bein' careful....no worries...
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25-05-2003 08:03
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