27-05-2003 06:07									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Not 100%, but if these glowing spheres have been established to be linked with ghosts, showing the existence of these spheres would be constitute some pretty strong evidence for ghosts.

by who? if ancient greeks saw lightning they would say its zues' thunderbolts...we know better than that now...you cant read more into something without scientific evidence.

	27-05-2003 06:08									#32
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UR is chinese....It doesn't surprise me that be does not believe what he cannot understand

However it is OK, for I know that they exist, and that is enough for me. In fact, more than enough

	27-05-2003 06:09									#33
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I personally feel that "ghosts" and all the theories of them are bull, but when it's captured onto photograph (the light bounces off something in a certain way or the picture is just plain wierd or something, I dunno) it makes me doubt it.

For example, I know a man who used to give tours of an old house...he got a snapshot of a ghost, no phototricks, no editing, there's a ghost in the picture...turned up after it was developed, too (at a regular old walmart IIRC.) Things like that are recorded evidence and thus chips away at the strong logical foundation that is my disapproval of the Ghost as a real being, but...lost my train of thought. Large analogies can do that.

	27-05-2003 09:54									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 UR is chinese....It doesn't surprise me that be does not believe what he cannot understand However it is OK, for I know that they exist, and that is enough for me. In fact, more than enough

But how do you know? Where does this belief come from?

	27-05-2003 09:58									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless It's scientifically proven that human cells emit large amount of energy (in forms of EM waves) before the body finally shuts down. Could ghosts come from people whose cells emitted extra-ordinary amount of energy? Also, science is still in its infancy. Of the 4 fundamental forces, only electro-magnetic force is well understood and characterized. We still know very little about the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, and the gravitational force.

Guess what EM waves are? Light. Yep, I emitted light, and so I become a ghost it's not like the light's gonna come BACK. Plus, individual cells do not emit vast amounts of energy. Most ORGANISMS have small electromagnetic fields, formed by the electrical impulses in their nervous system, but it doesn't conain any processing capabilities, appearance, or persistance after death.

Oh, and those other two forces don't have a range larger than the diameter of an atom (much smaller, actually). This is actually an absolute value.

	27-05-2003 10:04									#36
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quote: I suggest looking for dirty old ghoulies in the womens shower room.

quote: Nonetheless, there might be something to the ghost thing. Some sort of residual magnetic effects after death? Who the hell knows.

"Residual magnetic effect?" The magnetic field of a person is formed by the NERVE IMPULSES. These kinda stop when you die

quote: If you mean the Electro-Weak-Interaction.... Can you explain why the weak nuclear force and em force are considered the same?

They aren't, exactly... at very high energies they behave the same.

	27-05-2003 10:10									#37
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You know, this study has proven nothing. Period. This psychologist went out, collected a large quantity of inconclusive data, then "interpreted" it to mean what he wanted it to.

	27-05-2003 12:55									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael But how do you know? Where does this belief come from?

I dunno

	27-05-2003 19:06									#39
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Bah! How can there be ghosts, if there is only one soul?

	27-05-2003 19:14									#40
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What about pink unicorns behind the moon?

	27-05-2003 21:34									#41
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What about them?

	27-05-2003 21:56									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless It seems that the best way to destroy undead beings such as ghosts, spectres, and etc is to use high-intensity, high-frequency electro-magnetic waves.

I believe this was the solution the scientist in The Legend of Hell House divises to clear the evil haunted mansion of its resident ghoul.

We can all see how he ended up...

	27-05-2003 22:07									#43
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Wow. That says absolutely nothing about anything. Honestly, UR, I'm not saying ghosts exist, but that's a really flimsy article. People associate (coldness, etc.) with ghosts. People claim haunted feelings in (cold, etc.) areas. Therefore it's just their imagination. WTF?
I think any scientific investigation of spiritual phenomena will tend towards this kind of ridiculousness, just because of the sheer number of unknown quantities involved. The more grand and sweeping the belief, the more absurd the investigation can get. Did anybody here read the story about a year and a half ago, where the scientist zapped people's brains with magnets to make them feel like they were talking to god, then held it up as proof that god didn't exist? That was really sad.

	27-05-2003 22:28									#44
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quote: If you mean the Electro-Weak-Interaction.... Can you explain why the weak nuclear force and em force are considered the same?

Exactly the EW Interaction: They called the resulting force "electro-weak" to underline they're unified in the current model exactly as "electro-magnetism" was chosen to underline the fact that electric and magnetic forces were unified.

quote: They aren't, exactly... at very high energies they behave the same.

Well, it's not just that (obviously IMHO, i'm not such an expert):
At high energies we "see" that they're the same, at ordinary energy we thought they were different just because they "acted on different particles differently"

Ok, it's a bit confused...
let me see if i can find a description of what i mean somewhere...

Hey! someone won a Nobel on this!
The Presentation Speech is probably the best way to express what i mean:

[...]
The theory which is awarded this year's prize, and which was developed in separate works by the prizewinners in the 60's, has extended and deepened our understanding of the weak force by displaying a close relationship to the electromagnetic force: these two forces emerge as different aspects of a unified electroweak interaction. This means e.g. that the electron and the neutrino belong to the same family of particles; the neutrino is the electron's little brother.
[...]

If you're interested the full text is at http://www.nobel.se/physics/laureat...ion-speech.html

Coming back to the topic, the point is that the study don't prove that ghosts doesn't exist (and, like templar and obiwan said, such a negative proof is impossible), the true conclusion of the article is that haunted places exist and authors just made hypothesis about causes.
I think it won't make superstitions recede, cause ghost-believers can continue saying that ghosts caused those unusual experience while others will reply that they're caused by environmental cues.
They should try to build an "artificial haunted house" using eviromental effects they observed in haunded sites and try to "fool" mediums in a consistent way. this should show that enviromental cues are really what mediums or other sensitive peoples feels in haunted places.

quote: What about pink unicorns behind the moon?

SO I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS THEM!!!

quote: quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless It seems that the best way to destroy undead beings such as ghosts, spectres, and etc is to use high-intensity, high-frequency electro-magnetic waves. I believe this was the solution the scientist in The Legend of Hell House divises to clear the evil haunted mansion of its resident ghoul. We can all see how he ended up...

Yeah, everyone knows that only a proton pack will harm ghosts...

	27-05-2003 22:42									#45
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Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist...


I believe in Ghosts (or "trapped Souls" as some would say), but I'm not sure if I want to see proof of their existense... to live with belief, is sometimes more interesting, than to know the fact (e.g. I prefer not to know, what's under the christmas tree, since it's more exiting to guess )

	28-05-2003 11:14									#47
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I don't think it's the suggestion of proof that annoys the ghost-believers. More likely it's evidence of reasons other than ghosts explaining the phenomenom that's annoying them by giving their beliefs less credence.

I wonder how long the elf-believers held on to their superstition of generations before they gave up? Oh, that's right, we still have flat-earthers

	28-05-2003 11:43									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Wow. That says absolutely nothing about anything. Honestly, UR, I'm not saying ghosts exist, but that's a really flimsy article. People associate (coldness, etc.) with ghosts. People claim haunted feelings in (cold, etc.) areas. Therefore it's just their imagination. WTF?

HAHAHAHA no need to point it out so quickly! The Chinese are so cute when sharing their cultural learning process

SECRETS OF THE UNIVERSE REVEALED - GOD DOES NOT EXIST BECAUSE GROUP OF SCIENTISTS UNSURE OF WHERE TO FIND HIM

	29-05-2003 09:51									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka SECRETS OF THE UNIVERSE REVEALED - GOD DOES NOT EXIST BECAUSE GROUP OF SCIENTISTS UNSURE OF WHERE TO FIND HIM

ALTERNATIVE SECRETS OF THE UNIVERSE REVEALED - GOD EXISTS, NOT ONLY BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD ME SO, BUT BECAUSE THEY EVEN HAD THE BOOK TO PROVE IT!

	29-05-2003 09:57									#50
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Angelo: I think we said the same thing - "behaves the same" and "we see them to be the same" don't have any real differences (at least not in this case). What IIRC really happens is that the equations for how the EM and weak forces behave as a function of energy converge into one curve.

	29-05-2003 12:19									#51
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quote: SECRETS OF THE UNIVERSE REVEALED - GOD DOES NOT EXIST BECAUSE GROUP OF SCIENTISTS UNSURE OF WHERE TO FIND HIM

That's the first time I've ever agreed with you Zylka.

	29-05-2003 18:50									#52
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You start out with no assumptions. You start out with no belief with regards to God. Scientists don't have to disprove God, because God has yet to be proven. When that happens, scientists can go ahead and try, but I don't know why they would want to.

	29-05-2003 19:16									#53
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 That's the first time I've ever agreed with you Zylka.

oooh... Zylka's on your side...

I bet he see's lots of "ghosts".

	29-05-2003 22:57									#54
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Isn't it logically impossible to disprove something? I figured out the logic to this once, but I have a terrible memory (in addition to having to erase all nonessential memories for more room to store porn.)

	30-05-2003 03:32									#55
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Yes it is impossible to disprove something, but you can provide sufficient evidence that something does not exist such that it is considered not to be true any longer.

	30-05-2003 04:13									#56
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Also, if something hasn't been proven to be true, Occam's razor comes into play and it can be said to be untrue.

	30-05-2003 06:41									#57
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quote: Also, if something hasn't been proven to be true, Occam's razor comes into play and it can be said to be untrue.

Nope. Occam's Razor only says we should favour a simpler explanation over one more complex. It can only offer probabilities, not as a proof in itself.

BTW, he's also a Theist.

	30-05-2003 09:28									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Angelo Scotto Hey! someone won a Nobel on this!

These folk.

They made this "Chromodynamic Theory" (IIRC) which unified EM and the weak force. Of course it doesn't mean EM is the same as the weak force.

Just like GR unified EM and gravity, but it doesn't mean EM is the same as gravity.

	30-05-2003 09:30									#59
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WHAT?! When did they unify EM and gravity?

I know supersymmetry is supposed to do so, but they can't really know until they work out a quantum theory of gravity.

	30-05-2003 09:35									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Yes it is impossible to disprove something, but you can provide sufficient evidence that something does not exist such that it is considered not to be true any longer.

It depends on what that something is. For example, to logically disprove the statement "All crows are black," all you need to find is a non-black crow.

On the other hand, the statement "The Judeo-Christianity god exists" may or may not be possible to disprove by logic. Heck, some Christians even go as far as declaring their god is not bound by logic.