01-08-2003 22:11									#181
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Well done... and SG(2) is next.

1. atomant
2. Jrabbit
3. OldnSlow
4. SG(2)
5. STYOM
6. Bob_Smurf42
7. sirsnuggles
8. SCG
9. La Fayette

	01-08-2003 23:06									#182
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Your discussion regarding the perils of shipchains illuminates my disagreement with SG concerning science improvements.

In an impromptu study several weeks ago (when SG first criticized my tactics), I determined that it takes 8-12 turns of normal science production from improvements to equal the journey of a caravan.

Now, when one considers how long it takes to build a caravan (or the cost if one rush builds), the effective rate of 8-12 turns decreases.

When you consider the cost and time involved in producing the necessary transports and escorts, coupled with the numerous turns of waiting for complete shipchains, that 8-12 turn ratio is dropped even more. It can, in fact, be more reliable to build library's and University's and live off of three high established trade routes (in each city), than to simply build caravan after caravan.

I think the point that SG misses, is that a city with 3 trade routes, with a library, and with a university can very nearly produce the same amount of trade per turn (without all of the risks involved).

Besides, if all of one's cities are toggled for the continual production of caravans in order to gain scientific advance, and thereby neglects science improvements, that civilization is hence reduced to complete and perpetual subservience to the caravan trading system, and must neglect all other game avenues.

A powerful advantage to not having to rely upon the caravan-only-strategy, is that one can utilize their cities for producing happy improvements, settlers, and military units. And thus conquer the world without worrying about not producing enough caravans to maintain the scientific advantage.

Yet, if one builds library's early (when caravans are really quite ineffectual), then sends out caravans, and then adds university's when they are discovered, any complete and total reliance upon the caravan trading system is abolished. Now, certainly, after one has done this, one may continue to produce the occasional caravan in order to supplement scientific advance. The point, however, is that one is not reduced to complete subservience to the caravan strategy. I would point out that, utilizing both strategies (caravans and library's) in tandem, would in fact, be the most effective route to take, giving one much more flexibility.

	02-08-2003 01:35									#183
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Sirsnuggles

I would recommend that you read the Early Landing Guide by Solo. There you will find a vast amount of his writing is devoted to the subject of Trade. Perhaps you would care to tell us where he went wrong!

The danger of losing Caravans in transit is a puerile argument against trading. Using the same logic we can arrive at a variety of absurd propositions. E.g. - Ban ambulances as they might crash and kill people on their way to hospital.

quote: Originally posted by sirsnuggles I think the point that SG misses, is that a city with 3 trade routes, with a library, and with a university can very nearly produce the same amount of trade per turn (without all of the risks involved).

Yes I do miss this point as they increase science NOT trade. The only city improvement that increases trade is Superhighways.

Try starting a new game with an emphasis on heavy trading. I bet it beats the way you play at present!

--------------------

SG(2)

	02-08-2003 01:38									#184
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A cheap two ha'p'th worth on a game in which I am not involved ...

The purpose of ship chains as opposed to a number of ships is to ensure that valuable cargo can never be caught at sea!!!

SG[1]

	02-08-2003 11:00									#185
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You dismiss (and misunderstand) my point too readily.

When I mention the peril of ships at sea, I do not mean that one should not trade (or send ambulances), I simply refer to the peril of relying so completely upon such a risky strategem, that is, a complete dependence upon the continual ferrying of caravans for science and gold. The disruption of shipping (as England well came to understand, and as also applies to civ2, during the initial stages of WW2), especially if this disruption is catastrophic, can lead to the complete cessation of scientific and economic growth-if indeed the entirety of these growths come from caravans.

Now, if ambulances were invariably navigated by intoxicated coachmen, than perhaps we might do well to outlaw ambulances. In my opinion, relying completely upon the insecurity of ferried caravans constitutes complete folly.

One must possess the backup, that is the unremitting science and gold output that "white goods" ensure when the Vikings (or some such villain) destroys an entire ship chain; or when caravan production must be abandoned in lieu of military units necessary for the preservation of the empire. The idea succintly: when one relies completely upon the ceaseless production of carvans, no other development may occur either militarily or infrastructure.

Such thinking does not constituted puerility, but abstraction




My point, goodfellow(ess) SG, is that one should always establish three trade routes in each city complete with libraries and universities. When one possesses such stable institutions, if one wishes to risk further caravan shipments the reward may well be beneficial, yet even if these shipments meet with disaster, scientific and economic growth will continue without disruption or collapse.

quote: Yes I do miss this point as they increase science NOT trade. The only city improvement that increases trade is Superhighways.

Trade=science and/or gold; or trade arrows. Used interchangeably throughout both my posts, and Civ2's official handbooks.

To be technical, Superhighways increase 'trade arrows' from the production screen (not trade routes, although the increase in trade arrows directly lead to a subsequent increase in trade routes). This 'trade' that is increased, benefits the three tiered monstrosity of science, gold, and luxuries.

To say that libraries increase trade is informally still correct, since libraries do increase a certain aspect of trade, namely science.

I fully understand the complexities of trade, trade routes, trade arrows, science, luxuries, gold, etc.

I hope this constitutes a robust constructive defense.

PS. I am not attacking the concept of shipchains, indeed, they are quite useful, I simply wish to point out the temerity of these endeavors. That ship chains cannot always be maintained, that disruptions occur, and that costly production must be spent defending these ship chains.

When these disruptions occur, science progression must continue, and it will continue best where libraries and universities exist.

	02-08-2003 13:57									#186
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quote: Originally posted by sirsnuggles Trade=science and/or gold; or trade arrows. Used interchangeably throughout both my posts, and Civ2's official handbooks.

Let's get some joined up thinking about trade arrows. Trade is allocated via the Tax Rate into Science/Gold/Luxuries. I have never seen a Civ2 manual but many respected posters frequently comment that they are packed with errors. I suggest you believe the players who have veteran experience backed with proven results.

There is no semantic technicality about Superhighways - they increase trade.

I think you have attempted to mount a defence but it's hardly robust. I suspect you have jumped on the occasional perils of caravans in transit to justify your position on buying libraries in awful locations. You have obviously been thinking hard since my first criticism some weeks ago.

The manual you should read is Solo's Early Landing Guide. Then come back and tell us who is correct - Solo or sirsnuggles? Alternatively, you could go on playing the same way … stuffing cities with improvements that are not really needed. Just like the AI!

-----------------------------------------

SG(2)

	02-08-2003 18:36									#187
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sirsnuggles,
There is a very easy way to know for sure whether a strategy is performing: play it and win .
Here is my proposal: you play any of the Early Landing Comparison Games designed by solo and then come back here and tell us what you achieved.

Last edited by La Fayette on 02-08-2003 at 23:02

	03-08-2003 03:12									#188
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I have this Monster

NO Engineers. 15 turns unless we eliminate a civ then the turn passes. Thinks ... could probably take out the French in 1860 which would save learning a lot of geography

----------------

SG(2)

	03-08-2003 03:50									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits could probably take out the French in 1860 which would save learning a lot of geography ---------------- SG(2)

May I help ?

	03-08-2003 05:27									#190
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15 turns is the limit, not the minimum, SG(2).

Those who want to develop a plan and implement it (you can't always do both in 6 turns) have 15 turns to do so. If you can knock out the French in 3 turns... by all means do so, if you want

	07-08-2003 01:13									#191
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, well, well, here I am back from the Unemployment lines and what do I see....Round three of snuggles v/s git

My personal weigh-in..... Caravans are great for obvious resons and If you could spend most of your time building caravans and getting 300gp deliveries for them then that would be great, but each city should at least have a market and library, especially after adams place is built. If you are only relying on your caravans you are not letting cities live up to thier full potential and therefore are wasteing a valuable resource. Besides I like to micro manage city's more than i like to keep up with caravan movements.

Anyway back on topic, you are all doing extreemly well and I hope you don't mind me checking in now and then.

	07-08-2003 10:26									#192
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Here's my take on the Caravans vs. Improvements debate:

Caravans are more efficient, but also more work. Examples:

A) You could spend a turn to contribute 1 shield towards a wonder and rushbuy it and great expense. Easy, but expensive. Or, you could incrementally buy the caravans needed to build it, and drive them all to the intended home for the wonder and deliver them all in the same turn. Much cheaper, I'm sure, but much more work.

B) By building a Library and University, you only need to pay a little attention to the city as they're being built, and you get 'automatic' science every turn from that city. Using the same number of shields, you could build several Caravans and get a large lump sum of science and cash with each delivery (plus a small increase in ongoing trade). Of course, the delivery requires a trade infrastructure (boats, roads, RR) and takes more work, as well.

Now, if you're really disciplined, you'll go for Caravans almost all the time, in all but your largest cities. However, sometimes it's just easier to build a market, library or other improvement - particularly if the city already has a lot of trade, or doesn't have desirable supply commodities, or will celebrate with a little increase in base luxuries that's generated by a marketplace, for example.

	08-08-2003 15:52									#193
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MarketPlaces are important if built wisely, as they aid cities growth under Rep or Dem. Larger cities allow better caravan returns.

Progress Report. I will post the save later on. At present I've played 7 turns establishing footholds on the Zulu, Spanish and Chinese continents. Russia next!The French are a zoo at Tours. Have not taken out the Indians as some of their large cities can produce trade bonuses of 1700+.

Please note that all Gits will be on holiday from this weekend for two weeks

------------------

SG(2)

	08-08-2003 19:06									#194
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While we’re waiting for the Gits report, I’ll throw my 1.5 cents into the camel/infrastructure debate. I don’t know enough to make it the full 2 cents, but:

Why not both?

The advertisers play with our minds (candy mint/breath mint; tastes great/less filling -- to try to get us to absorb two messages. I’m just now coming into full appreciation for he power that camels can bring to a civ -- the questions remaining for me are those of balancing the ‘when’ to expand further, the ‘when’ to shift to military activity and the ‘when’ to set in place (and expand) the boat chain to distant markets.

With a reasonable boat chain, reasonable supply of camels (implying a reasonable number of cities) I’ve been able to mostly get a tech a turn during the mid game. At this time my non SSC cities are flirting with size 8 or so, some camels are distracted by wonder building (Mike’s, Leo’s, Magellan, Isaac), so there’s serious opportunity coat in making settlers for additional cities. Similarly, I have a hard time justifying additional infrastructure when -- lots of cash is coming in & I’m getting a tech a turn (with some exceptions due mainly to mismanagement of boat resources.) Building libraries won’t gain techs faster unless I can build enough to get TWO techs a turn -- which means a LOT of libraries (in a lot of cities, which I usually don’t have either.)

Once Mike’s is in place, I figure that size 8 cities are easy to maintain with only a temple, so even a market is optional -- the $1-2K per turn from camels pays for the bulk of the ongoing expenses. Thus markets come into play as primarily the next step for size 12 cities, but this often requires some irrigation -- which means settler time, which means fewer or later additional cities.

Once the camels start to dry up & I have multiple routes for my major cities, I’ll start to shift some of the economic activity to building infrastructure -- again keeping in mind that slots open up calling for another camel…

So medium story short -- if one has enough cities to garner a tech a turn with infrastructure, then one can have two techs a turn with trade & infrastructure (and yes I remember a post where on player was getting four or five techs per turn -- very late game I figure), so infrastructure has significant value. but I think that mid game -- camels need to be put on the road & crammed into foreign markets.

	08-08-2003 23:36									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits The French are a zoo at Tours. [/b] ------------------ SG(2)

Sainte-Maure would be better, but unfortunately it is not on the list

Have a nice time on vacation.

	08-08-2003 23:44									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Old n Slow I remember a post where on player was getting four or five techs per turn

Summer joke.
There are also a few braggers posting to Apolyton.

(no one should feel compelled to believe them: no gurus please, no gurus please, no gurus )

	09-08-2003 02:40									#197
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It's pretty difficult to get more than 1 tech per turn. I think that I may have accomplished that a couple of times when I first started playing civ2 and had the discipline and desire to micromanage every minutia. I would agree with Lafayette, however, and not feel compelled to believe those braggarts.

	09-08-2003 04:56									#198
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LF ... the wonderful Goat's cheese.

The most advances I have ever managed was three for one year. More would be possible if Darwin's was delayed to the Hyper Trade window (After Automobile but before Flight) and everything was built in the right order.

LOG

Thanks Old n'Slow It's a complex game but I can understand your strategy. I love that long shipchain which must have taken effort to establish I'm not at all worried that you forgot to buy Offshore Platforms as the gold saved will pay for Superhighways. Disappointed that Automobile isn't discovered. I realise we have Leo's but the benefits of this advance are too good to ignore.
1) Superhighways
2) Battleships where appropriate to storm coastal towns
3) Opens the tech tree for Mobile Warfare. Armour's three movement power would be useful on a map short of roads

1860
Genetic Engineering Atomic Theory, Flight and Refrigeration offered Choose the last one.
With the Lux Rate lowered to 40% from 70% only two cities fall out of celebrations.
Calcutta reinforced;
Gems/Salt/Dye to Bangalore 578/482/1232;
Tugela bribed for 556 - 64 back
Marseille captured 42 plundered
Paris captured 17 plundered
Huts - Fanatic/Tribe West Poitiers

1861
Refrigeration > Automobile
Wine to Kaifeng - 265; Cloth to Rheims 156; Gems to Bangalore 658; Gold to Delhi 1540
Orleans captured 57 plundered
Rheims captured 56 plundered
The French have one city - Tours
Tribe - Deep South

1862
Automobile > Mobile Warfare
With Leo's defunct it's still good policy to bribe Settlers. Whilst they won't turn into Egineers there are many strategic points on the map where "Canal Cities" will save turns of sailing
Cure for Cancer in Cul-de-Sac
Salt to Ningpo 102;
Hut 50g. Things seemed a little quiet until a captain of a wandering transport noticed "happy hour" at Yangchow. The Chinese refused to give tribute and offered war. A spy offered 550 for the place and received 98 plunder.

1863
Construction of Superhighways in Rhodes and other cities.
Wine to Karachi 1260; Dye to Bangalore 1652; (Both these freights saw their home towns build Superhighways the previous year)
Delhi + Pyramids captured - 135 plundered. (10 Granaries sold)
My initial reaction to the game was to use the long Indian ship chain to begin the elimination of the purples. However, after enjoying the benefits of some hefty trade returns to this continent there is a strong case for preserving their mega cities a bit longer. In effect these freight bonuses will finance all our other wars as well as keeping science active! Delhi/Pyramids was too much of a target to be ignored. It allows manipulation of unblocking supply side commodities in other cities now it's under the orange flag
Oil to Rhodes 243 - unblocking its coal supply.
Spanish won't pay tribute - WAR; Salamanca bribed for 1290 - 55 in plunder.
Hut - Tribe - Little China

1864
Mobile Warfare > Mass Production
Oil x 4 to Bangalore 741/654/825/482;

1865
Mass Production > Computers
Indians become a Republic
Punjab Bribed for 538 - 106 plundered
Gold to Lahore 1702; Beads/Oil to Bangalore 616/616

1866
Computers > Robotics
Zimbabwe captured 131 plundered. Zulu Government escapes to Ulundi. Swazi bribed for 890 - 56 back; Isandhlwana bribed for 940 - 57 back
Dacca bribed for 372 - 40 plundered
Coal to Ulundi 325; Coal/Salt/Gems to Bangalore 1726/206/447
Hut - 100g

1867
Robotics > Atomic Theory ... rest of turn to be played.

Population 23.5m
Treasury 6796 ... some gold for bribes
Rhodes has a repeating Hides supply. Well worth rushing a Fanatic for 120 each turn then changing to a Freight.
Turns take about an hour each

Good Luck!

-----------------------

SG(2)

Attachment: ro_a1867.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	09-08-2003 05:16									#199
	Tired of ads?

Good job
I'm fairly sure that getting Robotics just before vacation must be highly rewarding

	11-08-2003 09:31									#200
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It seems I'm up. I'll d/l and play within the next few days...

	11-08-2003 18:15									#201
	Remove this text

quote: Turns take about an hour each

Yeah, with no real "core" to our civ, you have to add "where the heck is it?" to the normal "what was I doing with it?" micromgt when evaluating each city, each turn. I can't help but note that this log contains not a single drinking reference!

Awesome progress, (2) !!

	18-08-2003 08:09									#202
	Sorry for the delay, the power outage ate my ISP! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

1867: Benjamin Franklin rediscovers electricity , allowing me to complete the turns involved.

It seems we have a well developed shipchain towards the Indians - who, as always, have a lot of large cities in a representative government. The Zulus, on the other hand, have smaller cities. Thus, we will trade with the Indians and conquer the Zulus. And anyone else we can reach (Spanish?).

Oil>Saragossa 26 g , Wine>Hlobane 154 g, Oil>Ulundi 106 g, Goldx2>Ulundi 124 g, 130 g, Gems>Bangalore 840g, Silk>Bangalore 188 g, Beads>Bangalore 840 g, Gold>Lahore 1574 g Looks like the Injians are the better trade partner, all right.

Umtata bribed for 670 g, with 76 in return. Zunguin bribed for 1010 g, 67 in return. Amatikulu bribed for 1067 g, 51 in return.

Staunch allies, the Chinese and Zulus swap a bunch of sciences, for all the good it'll do them.

1868: Atomic Theory discovered; researching Flight.
Gold>Lahore 966 g, Salt>Bangalore 522 g, Cloth>Bangalore 378 g, Hides>Bangalore 987 g.

Astrakhan captured, 166 g, Novgorod captured, 91 g, Kiev bribed for 1004 g.
Intombe revolts for 1192 g, 82 back. Umfolozi revolts for 1172 g, 72 back. Isipezi revolts for 920 g, 52 back.
Valladolid destroyed. Spanish defenders of Corboba (I saw a Knight and a Pikeman) successfully hold off the attacks of an Armor and 2 Cavalry. Without walls. The Roadlessan army salutes you, gutsy Spaniards!
Tatung revolts for 2290 g, 170 back.

Zulus hold a revolution.

1869: Flight discovered; researching Radio. I can't wait to build Airports in every 2-bit backwater town we have, and scrap the hordes of Transports that currently serve them (major shipchains will remain, of course).

Gold>Lahore, 1212 g, Gold>Delhi 614 g, Gems>Bangalore 439 g, Wine>Bangalore 1405 g

Ulundi captured, 97 g plunder. Bapedi revolts for 543 g, 72 plunder. Mpondo revolts for 976 g, 65 plunder. Hlobane revolts, 670 g, 52 plunder.

We accept the proffered peace 'treaty' from the Zulus and after some gifts, they helpfully tell us where their last 2 cities are

Macao revolts, 2870 g, 118 back.

Tblisi revolts, 640 g, 113 back.

Zulus form Fundamentalism.
Spanish develop Monarchy

1870: Radio discovered; researching Advanced Flight.
Hidesx3>Bangalore 664, 664, 348 g, Coal>Bangalore 494 g,

Zulus withdraw when asked

Pamplona revolts, 880 g, 77 back.

Indians learn Machine Tools. French learn Sanitation.

1871: Wool>Karachi 142 g, Gold>Delhi 722 g, Gems>Bangalore 466 g.
Demand for tribute directed at Zulus results in war
Sevastopol revolts for 672 g, 118 g back.
Ibabanago revolts for 528 g, 191 back.

1872: Advanced Flight discovered; researching... Combined Arms.
Hides>Bangalore 658 g, Salt>Bangalore 500 g, Silver>Lahore 834 g, Gold>Delhi 702 g, Wine>Bangalore 702 g.

Cordoba captured; Spanish government flees to Toledo, 13 g plundered.
Naples revolts for 140 g, 50 g plunder, Zulu civilization destroyed.
As per my own rule (stop playing when a Civ is eliminated), my turns end here.

I didn't want to knock off the French with their one remaining city - too easy. But we should be able to quickly roll over most of the other AIs with equal ease. The Russians and Spanish are very low tech, the Indians are fairly advanced but we have a lot of units in place there (for now, they are more valuable as a trading destination). Only the Chinese seem to be a (semi-) challenge - they are remote, and fairly evolved.

There is a shipchain in place between Leicester and Calcutta. It's fairly long, and to simplify it, the 'outgoing' ships are mostly on 'sleep'. One row going out and another, staggered row returning. I decided to build Airports in our isolated cities rather than try to coordinate shipchains to them. Also, there is a lot of Freight to deliver near Delhi. We should learn Combined Arms next turn. We have tons of cash.

Last edited by Six Thousand Year Old Man on 18-08-2003 at 08:22

	18-08-2003 08:16									#203
	Et voila, the save... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

...

Attachment: ro_a1872.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	18-08-2003 08:27									#204
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

In the apparent continued absence of Bob_Smurf42, sirsnuggles is next.

1. atomant
2. Jrabbit
3. OldnSlow
4. SG(2)
5. STYOM
6. Bob_Smurf42
7. sirsnuggles
8. SCG
9. La Fayette

	18-08-2003 13:00									#205
	Increase Your PM Length

Wow, I'll see if I can get it done tomorrow. If not, then in the next few days. I'm finishing my controversial turns for the Mongol game at the moment.

	19-08-2003 02:18									#207
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hmm. I like the look of that smilie.
Looking forward to this turnlog...

	19-08-2003 02:24									#208
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Will take me a few days, got some friends in crisis, and at the same time got my gf mad at me. Everybody's in turmoil. Oy, relationships. But I still should have some time to get a crack at this soon.

Thanks bunny man!

	30-08-2003 08:32									#209
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

*bump*

Any progress Sir S? Have you broken up our freight-shipchain for scrap?

	30-08-2003 11:51									#210
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Oh goodness, I'm sorry guys, I've been so busy that I clean (or rather messily forgot) that it was my turn. Please, I beg your forgiveness. I will play this weekend if you can still tolerate me.

I will respond to your criticisms to, but I will when I have the time. I'm working on some projects that perhaps even the SG's may grudgingly admit into the academy.