07-07-2003 15:58									#121
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette 'White goods' = City improvements (if you wish to know why: ask the SGs)

In the UK the term White Goods refers to appliances which are often white in colour. (Freezers, Wahing Machines, Dishwashers etc.) The reason that the term is used in Civ is because the City Status Advisor F1 has all city improvements marked white, as opposed to Units which are orange and Wonders which appear in blue.

------------------

SG(2)

	07-07-2003 16:56									#122
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

SG,
That makes sense.

Hey, I just posted a reply in the Samson Hut thread...I mentioned you, perhaps you can confirm what I said.

	07-07-2003 18:14									#123
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Welcome, sirsnuggles!

1. You should take a tour of the Great Library, which is located as a topped thread on the Civ2/Strategy forum. Tons of useful, obscure, and amusing articles there!

2. When clicking in the black, a number of useful bits of info can be gleaned. For instance, a square that is "in the pattern" to have a hut may be revealed to be water and thus not worth pursuing. For land areas, you can obtain the continent number. Same vs. new continent is potentially valuable info. Finally, you can also learn enemy city locations, because if there's a city on the square you click, the screen doesn't center.

Very few of us use this technique, as it can pretty tedious to use effectively. Is it a cheat? Well, there's open debate on this. My personal opinion is that it's much less of a cheat than ship-chaining, which offers transglobal transportation in a single turn, even in wooden boats.

If used to intelligently, black-clicks can help glean a couple bits of needed data (like trying to find a civ's last city when you know it's nearby), which IMHO is much more in the spirit of the game.

Looking forward to seeing your turnlogs appearing in these threads...

	10-07-2003 16:59									#124
	Tired of ads?

since when have you been humble rabbit man?

	10-07-2003 17:44									#125
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

WELCOME BACK, ATOMANT!!!!!

Does this mean you now have a Civ-rready comp again?

	10-07-2003 19:57									#126
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Sirsnuggles, I read your linked article & there are a few flaws with the set up of the equations IMHO. My first thought would be to characterize the banks & SE as an extra 50% each vs. 200% & 250%. Also the MKT & Banks have “happy” effects that could affect the global constraint of the luxury level. Given the global dual max equations of (max $$ & science) subject to three constraints (avoiding disorder, staying safe & cash on hand), evaluating city by city is partial equilibrium analysis -- second best work -- not to mention the potential effect regarding the cost of time. The article is great work for a high school freshman, but only so-so for a college student.

	10-07-2003 23:44									#127
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Actually, I wanted your opinion on his analysis of temples, colosseum's, and cathedrals (rather than mkt, bank, SE).

But his calculations concerning the latter (mkt) is correct.

He himself says, "Suppose we just want to make lots of money (and don't care about the luxury increasing effects)", so he is admitting to ignoring the luxury effects. Besides, he doesn't say anything about not building these improvements, instead, he demonstrates that these improvements (without regard to the luxury happiness effects) are beneficial.

As to the use of 1.5, 2, and 2.5, he is actually correct. It is a misconception that each improvement increases the previous improvement by an additional 50%. The truth about these modifiers is that each improvement increases the ORIGINAL BASE figure (without improvements) by 50, 100, and 150 (represented mathematically by 150, 200, and 250).

An example:
Let's say a city is producing a base of 4 gold, and we add improvements
market: 4*1.5=6
bank: 4*2.0=8 (NOT 6*1.5=9)
SE: 4*2.5=10 (NOT 9*1.5=13)

I've tested this to prove that it's correct. It works the same for factories too.

His point about cathedrals, however, is that they are not cost effective to build. Especially if you have banks and SE's that give you the necessary happiness through luxury anyway.

Perhaps we could ask Ming to turn this into its own thread, since we don't want to hijack the barren burbs game? I'd like to hear the opinion of the larger civ2 community anyway. It'd be interesting.

	11-07-2003 12:09									#128
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think let snuggles play for me I need to set up and reinstall civ again, all bow to the mighty god civ...

gie me till tuesday wednesday next week and we can rock....

And it is good to be back connected to the ether again..

	11-07-2003 22:08									#129
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Take your time Atomant.
We are happy to see you back and already able to read us

	14-07-2003 05:12									#130
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm back, briefly, anyway.

Lots of action in this thread but no turns played

1. sirsnuggles, you're in. Go ahead and play, since Bob_Smurf hasn't and nobody else has stepped up to the plate. If you are playing, please post that you are doing so, so that no-one else starts to play (succession game etiquette).

2. Alternately, if sirsnuggles can't play, could one of SCG/La Fayette/atomant post the intention to play and play, please.

3. Everyone else, quit threadjacking Good explanations, tho

	14-07-2003 11:14									#131
	Increase Your PM Length

Well thank you Six! I'd love to play. I'll go reread the multidinous rules and try hard not to break all of them...er...to break all but one...er, to break one but all...er, to break only one...er, maybe I'm gettin' confused with the silly rules thread I read last night.

Gosh, I'll just have to go reread this entire thread!

	14-07-2003 12:50									#132
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Oh, okay. I got it guys. Just no building of settlers or engineers. I love this game, perhaps I can dig us a deeper hole

	14-07-2003 18:37									#133
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Good luck. This is a tough one...

	15-07-2003 14:33									#134
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Here's the save. The book I wrote is coming up next.

Attachment: ro_a1794.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	15-07-2003 14:35									#135
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

1765: SirSnuggles named Steward of the Republic of Roadless Fools. His first act is to enact a coup; nation thrown into chaos. Slogan: Leave perplexing things like government and resource distribution to the capable hands of a benevolent Steward—He knows best!

His knowledge even avoided an annoying period of anarchy.

Steward forms the People’s Republic of Roadless Fools. Steward aggressively seeks out the worlds’ greatest scientists; 19 hired throughout the empire’s cities. Steward issues declaration that all trade routes must lead to Zimbabwe. Now that the plaintive voices of democracy have been muzzled, mass exploration recommences. Tax is now at +9, and science at 9 turns.

Yikes, the Steward sees that one of his foreign emissaries is encircled by barbarians with the mere protection of a wounded horsemen. Surely, this means certain death.

Foreign affairs report:
To the southern extremity lies the Republic of the Zulu’s. Hostile, peace, 1303 gold. 15 Cities. Researching Gunpowder. The Zulu’s speak rumors about the existence of a Chinese civilization (who obviously didn’t bother teaching the Zulu’s gunpowder!)

Where are the French that I’ve heard so much about?

Domestic Report
Cities: 28
Population: 4,520,000 (4th)
Treasury: 217
And a bunch of other useless minutia

1766: Speak of the devil, Chinese bestow gunpowder upon the aggressive Zulu’s (oh wonderful). The inevitable occurs: diplomat and guard hewn by barbarian hordes.

Great Zulu city of Hlobane (12) discovered. Steward amends previous declaration, “All trade routes must lead to Zimbabwe…although Hlobane’s okay too.”

1768: Spanish capital moved to Pamplona. The Steward’s new regime reports “turniel” profit of 10 gold, 9 turns to tech. 30/60/10.

1770: French capital moved to Grenoble. Spanish capital moved to Malaga? What the?! What was wrong with Pamplona? Steward declares Spain to possess the worst city planners, orders moratorium on hiring scientists from Spain. Scientists discover Steam Engine! Consequently, Leo tinkers in his shop and creates upgrades (pronounces Arnold obsolete); as a result, the elephant farming industry is ruined in the wake of zealous horse-riders. Caravel’s reworked into Galleons. Steward faces choice of Sanitation or Gunpowder. Knowing that Gunpowder can be obtained from the Zulu’s, and coupled with his weariness of the stench from his chamber pot, the Steward settles upon Sanitation.

French outpost of Rouen (5) discovered. France seems to be located to the East of Zululand. Mall-o-rama University begins offering courses in geo-political science (with the hopes of establishing relations with France).

1772: Malaga still not right, Spanish capital moved to Grenada. Russian capital moved somewhere. Pliny names Roadless fools 2nd largest Nation, Zulu’s 3rd, French 5th.

Salt caravan from Free Parking arrives in Zimbabwe, garnering 500 gold, +6 trade route.
Coal caravan (not demanded) from Beachside, garnering 226 gold, +6 trade route.
Poitiers (2) discovered just across the lake from Dijon.

1774: Indians about to complete Eiffel Tower. French lodge complaint concerning encroachment. Zulu’s discover trade.

Tax rate now: 40/60, +15, 8 turns.

Ooh, ooh, hut sighted on the coast of an unsettled island. Must explore…wandering nomads join our nation!

1776: Calcutta builds Eiffel. Russian capital moved to Sevastopol. Spanish move to Valencia (shmucks).

Steward discovers Sanitation, begins work on Railroad.
Boardwalk founded.

Salt caravan from Oxford arrives in Hlobane, garnering 276 gold, +3 trade route.
Besancon (4) discovered.
Nomads discovered west of Deerfield. Plan to found city of Park Place at 64,78.

1778: French move capital to Amiens. Mad again about encroachment. Spanish move again, this time to Cordoba.
Rhodes builds library, begins work on sewer system.
Crusaders found.
Plainsville copper caravan reaches Zimbabwe, garnering 364 gold, +5 trade route.
Highway Robbery cloth caravan reaches Zimbabwe, garnering 182 gold, +5 trade route.
Trireme Cove salt caravan reaches Zimbabwe, garnering 138 gold, +5 trade route.

1780: Russian capital moved to Moscow. Spanish capital not moved? Steward’s regime discovers Railroad! Seeks understanding of Industrialization (transports). French perform some act of espionage (not sure what), prompting the Steward to DECLARE WAR just for the heck of it.

Sewer system rush bought in Rhodes (cost 208 out of 2000 gold), making way for Darwin’s Voyage.

Plainsville destroys French catapult. Chartres discovered.

Oxford cloth caravan reaches Zimbabwe, garnering 123 gold, +5 trade route (better than the +3 it got from Hlobane).
Freaky Finds gems caravan reaches Zimbabwe, garnering 160 gold, +5 trade route.

1782: Chartres destroys knights. French explorer slain near Plainsville.

1784: French move capital to Grenoble. Zulu’s develop leadership, complain about encroachment. French slay University of Mall-o-rama diplomat graduate. French city of Rouen establishes trade route with Blandville (+1 trade).

French defeat crusader outside of Plainsville, lay siege to city.

1786: Plainsville survives multiple assaults by French horsemen.
French horsemen defeated upon the plains of Mall-o-rama.

1788: Indians woo famed financier Adam Smith.
Scouts report French military units closing in on Plainsville.
French horsemen defeated upon the plains of Dijon.

1790: Industrialization discovered, Da Vinci refits galleons as transports. Spurred by the Zulu’s continued refusal to exchange technologies, the Steward commences inquiries into developing a league of nations.

Zulu emissary demands 750 (out 1963) gold in reparations. The Steward scoffs at the backwater Zulu’s. Zulu’s DECLARE WAR!

Highway Robbery silver caravan reaches Zimbabwe, garnering 304 gold, +5 trade route.
The Institute establishes silk trade route with Zimbabwe, garnering 175 gold, +5 trade route.
Highway Robbery gems caravan (undemanded) reaches Zimbabwe, garnering 122 gold, +5 trade route.
Plainsville coal caravan (undemanded) reaches Zimbabwe, garnering 122 gold, +5 trade route.

Barbarian elephant struck down to the west of Bristol. The Hero of Plainsville (rookie Crusader) smites besieging French catapults to the southwest and to the south. More French units swarming, however, so the Hero must remain vigilant. Reports state Henry V sonnet read before battle.

Nomads discovered far to the east! Luxury Tax, built by an advanced indigenous people, assimilated into the empire in the far northeast.

1792: As if things could get worse for Plainsville, peasants to the northeast take advantage of the French war by staging a massive revolt.

Food caravans finally reach Rhodes with the intention of helping Darwin’s scientific research.
The Hero of Plainsville strikes down French archer unit (kill count now at 3).

Undemanded caravan reaches Zimbabwe from BB: 164 gold, +5 trade route.

1794: Zulu’s develop Physics. French horsemen impale themselves upon the spikes of beleaguered Plainsville.

The Steward discovers Communism plans construction of some sort of League of Nations. The Empires cities place competing bids for the building rights. The Steward desires faster emissaries with greater abilities, and thus commands his professors to develop the methods.

Three undemanded caravans reach Zimbabwe:
FF: 160 gold, +5 trade route.
Manchester: 64 gold, +5 trade route.
Thunderdome: 88 gold, +5 trade route.

Explorers find an advanced city to the far western borders of the Empire. The new addition, Suburbia (4), is already a leading city in the Empire with a granary, temple, marketplace, and library.

Hut=100 gold.
Hut=100 gold

Bristol suddenly appears to be surrounded by great barbarian hordes, yet one elephant is slain by the local defenders.

Indian civilization found just slightly east of Luxury Tax. President Gandhi gladly accepts the charitable gift of railroad presented by the magnanimous Steward. A peace treaty is signed, maps shared, and with a second gift of Industrialization an ALLIANCE is cemented!

Our new allies possess 14 cities, two of which are considered amongst the great cities of the world. They are still wooing famed financier Adam Smith, however, and are loath to exchange knowledge until negotiations are completed with him. Our Indian allies further reveal the existence of several Russian cities to the southeast end of their realm, on a continent that the Russians may well share with several of our own cities. Additionally, far to the east of the Indian realm exists the Spanish city of Madrid, which most certainly shares a continent with our Suburbia and Deerfield and yet to exist Park Place.

The great Steward (even if he says so himself), suddenly resigns citing health reasons. He glances over his Empire, and smiles with satisfaction. One last act remains to complete his reign: to the wonder of the world he personally assists DARWIN in completing his studies (costing 736 gold). The Steward, unable to fulfill the full vision of his dreams, calls upon his successor to construct a meeting place for the nations. Under the Steward’s regime, that is, the People’s Republic, technologies poured in boundlessly, cities were founded, commerce fostered, wars fought, alliances formed, and wonders built. He declares to his people, “We are the Roadless fools: Our power mighty, our reputation spotless, our wealth staggering, and our greatness undisputed.”

Tax Report: 40/60/0 +33 gold/turn, & 7 turns/discovery.

Foreign affairs report:
Allied with India. At war with France and Zululand.

Domestic Report:
Cities: 31, an 11% increase.
Population: 5,190,000 (4th), a 15% increase.
Treasury: 2344, a 980% increase.
And a bunch of other useless minutia.

Notes to successor: Have fun! You’ve inherited a great Empire. You should have no problem building whatever Wonder you want. You possess the world’s greatest merchant marine. With your wealth, your enemies should be easy to bribe, thereby gaining gunpowder and other military techs. I was planning to build Park Place at 64,78 (I like the gold, wheat, and fish resources there…well actually just the gold and wheat), and irrigated and roaded the wheat in preparation, but you will possess the ultimate say over whether it shall one day exist.

Well, it should be easy, and entertaining from here. Enjoy the wars, I largely ignored them, and simply transported several dips to their shores. Yet, whoever succeeds me may want to wait until espionage is discovered in several turns (that way you may reuse the upgraded spies).

	15-07-2003 18:04									#136
	Support Apolyton

Nice turns, and a fine log, sirsnuggles. Particularly sweet in the area of trade -->> techs + gold. Spending over 700 in cash to complete a WoW (expect a critique from The Institute) is unusual in these parts, but with over $2K left, there is hardly room for complaint...

Do I undersstand correctly, that your successor will get to choose our 2 free Darwinian Techs?

Anyway, IMHO, a fine debut performance, sir.

	15-07-2003 18:34									#137
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I agree, nice work.

	15-07-2003 19:10									#138
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Very good turns, sirsnuggles

Play list updated. I seem to recall SCG being away, so La Fayette is up. If either of SCG or atomant are now 'good to go' - please say so and you can play after La Fayette...



1. atomant
2. Jrabbit
3. OldnSlow
4. SG(2)
5. STYOM
6. Bob_Smurf42
7. sirsnuggles
8. SCG
9. La Fayette

Last edited by Six Thousand Year Old Man on 15-07-2003 at 19:19

	15-07-2003 22:02									#139
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I play tomorrow

	16-07-2003 09:47									#140
	Got spare money?

Thanks guys.

Yeah, my successor will get to choose the next two techs (compliments of Darwin). Espionage is the current study, and will, of course, go first and update our dips to Spies. Yeah, I got up to 3500 gold before I started spending it. I think we need to catch up in science to the Indians, so on a whim I felt like rushing Darwin's.

I was hoping to acquire Gunpowder from the Zulu's but they wouldn't part with it, so my successor may want to pick that one as we are involved in several wars now (or go steal it from the Zulu's by purchasing one of their cities).

I think a militarily tense time might be coming up.

	16-07-2003 09:56									#141
	Increase Your PM Length

Hi Sirsnuggles! Welcome to the Sticky Mouse Academy.

Some good advances and carefully considered turns … but your play would be enhanced by a course in Strategic Empire Management run by those nice chaps at the Institute!

During your term of office the scientific advances mainly came from some good trading and not from "ground" science. The next target of Espionage will cost 1312 beakers so even if the seven libraries currently under construction were rushed now, the addition to the beaker count would only increase by about 35 or under 3% of the required science for the advance. Their upkeep will cost an additional seven gold a turn. If instead the cities produced caravans the total returns could equal 500 beakers + 500 gold.

Only build white goods when there is a compelling case for the city improvement. If you must have a laundrette in Grottsville build it in two turns so the benefits come quickly and the city can revert to building something useful.

The treasury of 3000+ is wonderful except that it gains no interest. The only way to make the gold work is by incrementally rush buying freights to speed progress through the tech tree or by rushing a key project. With that sort of cash you could have bought Darwin's Voyage directly after Railroad.

After the discovery of Trade wonders are best constructed using caravans or rushed with gold. This is particularly true about Darwin's Voyage. The reason is that the early industrial period of the game reduces trade returns once trains start running around. At present this game is in the Railroad Gap which can only be rectified with the discovery of the Corporation when Leo's converts camels into freights… crucial in this roadless environment as they move two! Incidentally Darwin's is one of the wonders that should be constructed in a recently built city well down the list in F1 so the larger cities contribute their science after the construction of the project. There is no carry over of beakers after Darwin returns from the Galapagos Islands so on a bad day the wonder may only contribute one advance if it is triggered when F6 is nearly complete.


SG(2)

	16-07-2003 11:46									#142
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I haven't started playing yet, but I must say thank you to SG(2) for the brilliant summary he just made.
My advice to all players: read SG(2)'s lesson very carefully. It is full of good advice for playing midgame (between Navigation and The Corporation).

	16-07-2003 22:26									#143
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

LF, new leader of the Roadlessans, looks at the Empire and feels sad: we are very close to 1800AD and we only have ONE embassy. How can we decide wisely without information ?
But LF keeps smiling because he notices that our coneheads are researching ESPIONAGE
Vet spies within a few turns: there is nothing better for LF's morale and fighting spirit

It appears that the previous leader has NOT bought Darwin. This is good news, since it will allow us to establish some embassies, steal what those people have to offer and plan Darwin's building accordingly

It also appears that Explosives and The Corporation are 2 high priorities.
Due to some odd and very ancient taboo, we are unable to build settlers. Turning the few we have to engineers will be like x2 the number of settlers
...and building freights instead of caravans will be highly rewarding (2 moves + bonus x1.5)

LF finally decides that the window of opportunity for ironclads is almost closed, since the Zulus already have Gunpowder. Therefore the conquest will start with the well known 'killer combo': vet spies + cavalry.
This means that we shall research at full speed until we get Tactics and build a nice shipchain to our allies, the Indians (about 10 'seven moves' transports required, but highly rewarding deliveries to be expected).

Attachment: ro_a1810.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	17-07-2003 09:42									#144
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I currently lack sufficient time to address SG's theories, yet never fear, I intend to finish formulating my response.

I enjoy observing the techniques that the rest of you employ. After I completed my turn I continued to play the game (I hope that's okay, BTW) according to my particular stratagem. As this constitutes my initial foray into the civ2 community, the differences in our .sav games remain quite fascinating to me. I pray that you will indulge my curiosity.

Well done Lafayette.

	17-07-2003 13:09									#145
	Inflate your Upload Space

There were problems with access to Apolyton last night (at least for me). I wrote 2 logs and both disappeared on their way to this thread
I write a third one now and hope for the best

	17-07-2003 13:47									#146
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

1794: Taxes down from 40 to 20 (we are rich and need research); rushbuild all the libraries currently under building.

1796: City walls in Bristol (we want that Barb king!); hut = NOMAD ; Xinning in all cities with libraries = rate of research improved to 3turns/tech

1798: Hut = 100g

1800: ESPIONAGE (research Gunpowder); our spy steals Gunpowder .

1802: Our spies steal University and Chemistry; huts = 50g + 50g + Dragoons; swapping techs with the Indians gives us Leadership and Economics.
The Indians will also have Espionage; what do you think LF replies if you ask him to give away Espionage?
LF says 'no' and the Indians break the alliance (they will pay for that later ).

1804:The Corporation discovered (Metallurgy started); Deliveries to Zimbabwe: 218g + 218g + 188g + 825g (silver demanded) + 330g; hut = 50g;

1806: Barb king = 150g; Deliveries to Zimbabwe: 116g + 208g + 182g; Barb king = 150g; hut = Barb knights ; hut = Musketeers; coal to Bombay (first delivery to the Indians, though the shipchain is not complete yet) = 880g

1808: Hut = 100g; Conscription discovered (Explosives started).

1810: Explosives discovered (Electricity started, Tactics not offered, should be next ).

Conclusion:
We acquired 10 techs in 8 turns (Tactics next, I suppose)
The 'military' shipchain to Zululand is complete (a lot of 'dragoons soon to be cavalry' under building)
The 'trading' shipchain to India (eastwards from NoWhales) is almost complete.
My successor should be able to crush the Zulus, I suppose.

	17-07-2003 13:55									#147
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by sirsnuggles After I completed my turn I continued to play the game (I hope that's okay, BTW

Of course it is OK!
It is often very interesting to compare games (and there have been many comparison games organized on this forum, the last ones being the Early Landing Games created and directed by solo before he got buried in RoN )

	17-07-2003 15:48									#148
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette I wrote 2 logs and both disappeared on their way to this thread

Try writing the Log in Notepad or Word so it can be saved and then paste here. If Poly is having a bad day it won't be lost

---------------------

SG(2)

	17-07-2003 17:45									#149
	Support Apolyton

quote: Darwin's is one of the wonders that should be constructed in a recently built city well down the list in F1 so the larger cities contribute their science after the construction of the project.

Now why didn't I think of that?

** -Jrabbit learns something new from The Institue. **

	18-07-2003 10:52									#150
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Apolyton's been having bad days for several in a row now. I haven't been able to log on during the day all week long.