26-05-2003 01:53									#1
	about Global Warming Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

hi guys, im new on this forum...i'm a SMACX fan 'till the first day...


everybody seems to be afraid of the effect of Global Warning...
my question is why?

is it because it's bad to destroy the environnement?

-hey guys, it's just a game, you can do whatever you like, nobody will blame you for that (only in solo against AI, i dont have any experience of multiplaying game...but i wanna learn!)


is it because of the fungus explosion due to pollution and over-exploting ressources?

-okay okay, it can hurt really bad, in particular in the end of the game...but wait...when does appears the first signs of fungus plop?? i'll tell you when, when you've already discover the magnetic tube (sorry i've got the french version only), so when a fungus square appears, it's easy to secure the area if you're prepare to...but i understand it can slow down your production,for me the solution is more more more former and so more more more micro management...


is it the increase of the sea level?

-ok that can hurt really bad if you're not prepare to but...let me tell you something VERY interresting...


did you know that the Global Effect warning stop when you wait enough time???

i means, if you wait something like 50turns, the sea level increase for about 2000 meters (which is HUGE!!!!! 70% of the map is under the sea level...), BUT and here is my point...


THOSE EFFECT FINALLY STOPS!!!!!

you read me well, after waiting enough time you can produce as much as you want without doing any environnemental damage!!!did you ever dream about a base producing more than 500minerals per turn????

...hum, i haven't read enough treat to be sure that this has not yet been quoted...am i wrong?


any reactions?

	26-05-2003 03:29									#2
	Got spare money?

Chab,

It isn't hard to avoid the problem altogether if you know how to use Treefarms / Hybrid Forests etc. properly, and of course refrain from using a lot of attrocities. It's a lot easier than having your terraforming washed away, at least IMO. Whether it is more fun is up to you.

	26-05-2003 04:04									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

... erh, how do you avoid the eco-damage done by the other factions?!? That produces global warming too, doesn't it?

	26-05-2003 04:51									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Rubin ... erh, how do you avoid the eco-damage done by the other factions?!? That produces global warming too, doesn't it?

Eliminate them

	26-05-2003 05:40									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: did you ever dream about a base producing more than 500minerals per turn????

I get that anyways, 200 Hive bases all with tree+hybrid farms and cent presrve

	26-05-2003 08:08									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Rubin ... erh, how do you avoid the eco-damage done by the other factions?!? That produces global warming too, doesn't it?

I haven't seen this in my games. With the way the AI terraforms it's a wonder that they manage to produce enough minerals. I suppose that they could get there by attrocities, but they just don't seem to do that in my games, perhaps because I don't and they tend to be pacted against me so much. Admittedly I rarely play a game past 2250 or so, as it is usually in the bag by then.

	26-05-2003 13:58									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I've had games, where I ONLY planted forests - and the polar caps were still melting due to global warming. I noticed the huge numbers of boreholes build by the AI (especially by Morgan and ... yes, Deirdre!).

So, I think all factions contribute to the global warming...

	26-05-2003 18:52									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

Global warming is bad bad bad

Say goodbye to all those coastal boreholes
Say goodbye to those rolling forests
Say goodbye to the poor AI that can't cope with it

-Jam

	27-05-2003 19:40									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

i'm just getting back into SMAX, so i haven't gotten to that point in many games lately. but in my last game as zak, i started getting insane fungal pops near the end, when i was producing a LOT of minerals. when i looked at the base screen, i found that i was getting 3 of every resource from a square of fungus (i guess due to SPs and improvements?). so it turned out BETTER for me to have a lot of fungus around than normal improvements; at least i think it did. it was kind of neat because it tied in with the storyline - i was going for trancendence and it was all about being one with planet anyway. i want to try a game sometimes where i build no improvements except forests and fungus.

i remember rising sea levels being a pain, though, but at that point you could always just raise the land.

2 related questions - what improvements can be built OVER fungus (besides roads/tubes)? and do you guys ever use those tectonic (?) missiles to cause earthquakes and raise a bunch of land in one shot? what is the effect of those missiles environmentally (are they bad for the environment)?

i think global warming can work for you or against you. if you're firmly in the lead it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference.

	27-05-2003 20:39									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: found that i was getting 3 of every resource from a square of fungus

4-4-5 i think you can get it upto with the right techs and SP ?

quote: what improvements can be built OVER fungus

once you get the appropriate technology, anything if i remember correctly

quote: do you guys ever use those tectonic (?) missiles to cause earthquakes and raise a bunch of land in one shot?

i've never used them for serious offensive purposes, sometimes when i've just been toying with the AI. You have given me an idea for saving time raising land with formers though, but then i doubt they'd be available early enough and all work would be done by then.

	28-05-2003 09:26									#11
	Remove this text

I usually try to _manufacture_ fungal pops during the midgame to increase my income through planetpearls, but I hate having to waste former-turns raising terrain when I could be planting more bases. Thus, rising sea levels is just a pain in my ass which I try to avoid. Fortunately, due to the cleansing effects of building tree farms and centauri preserves, I'm rarely experiencing those problems nowadays. If I want to increase the clean mineral limit now, I just build and scrap a few more preserves, and grab a little cash for my trouble. Could I make a base which produces 500 minerals? Sure. But it would be much easier and better to produce 20 bases producing 50 minerals each.

	28-05-2003 15:25									#12
	Suffering from ads?

at a certain point cent farm tree-hybrid farm are way too weak to reduce the pollution effect...

when your base is getting more than 200min, it's almost impossible to stop the pollution...even if your base is surrounded by forest...

in the late game when i manage too reduce my production to avoid the Global Warning effect, i do it only to have time for crushing the other faction who's still alive because it's easier to destroy a land-based factions...after that,if i want to make the greatest score, i turn all my economy to fungus (3-4-5 per square techs+SP (4-4-5 with Deidre))...


has you said Bella Hella, global warning can work for you or against you...they are several advantages to build a sea-based empire, sea former can move faster and sea-base can never be affect by a probe attack (even if it's possible,i've already try it, but i've never seen AI make a sea probe...), sea-base are producing much more energies than land-based city, without any pollution effect...the misadvantages is that sea-base are weak, and difficult to protect if you dont have enough war ship...

even in transcendance mode, the AI is too stupid,it keeps cheating and doesn't play in long term...there's no more challenge for me...so i play for the score,and that's why i say that global warming is not a threat,i turn my economy to fungus, i leave one faction with one base(lvl1) and i spread my bases all over the world...


i've used tectonic missile to make a link between two continents and then attack trough this hole...you can surprise your ennemies this way.

except road and tub mag nothing can be built on fungus, but in SMACX i've already seen a borehole cluster on funus...


CEO Aaron,is 20 bases producing 50minerals really better than one producing 500min???imagine a project finish in 2turns...ascension to transcendance takes 4turns...think about it

	28-05-2003 15:53									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

with the amount of bases you've got have 10 hardcore bases and the rest just plugging away with 50minerals.

	28-05-2003 18:34									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Chab at a certain point cent farm tree-hybrid farm are way too weak to reduce the pollution effect... CEO Aaron,is 20 bases producing 50minerals really better than one producing 500min???imagine a project finish in 2turns...ascension to transcendance takes 4turns...think about it

Two points-- as far as I know, the effect of treefarms, centauri preserves, hybrid forests and temples of Planet is unlimited-- if you have built 200 of them in the game after the first fungal bloom then you could have a 200 mineral base producing no ecodamage. There have been detailed articles on this point on the board.

and yes 20 bases with 50 minerals IS better than one 500 mineral base. The Ascent to transcendence should take ONE turn to complete by cashing in all the crawlers you have available-- except in the early game, no project takes more than one turn to build . . . if you delay in Multi-player, someone else might build the project from under you.

Edit -- spelling and to clarify hoe the tree farm effect starts

	28-05-2003 20:11									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

To follow up on my point, a 500 mineral base is a waste !! Other than producing Secret Projects what do you build with the thing, that does not waste its immense mineral capacity ? You could probably produce some monstrous unit with best weapon best armour and expensive special abilities but you would be building it just to build it and not for any real purpose. Almost NOBODY will build the super expensive unit simply because it is impractical . . . there is no benefit to compensate for the cost

The flexibility of multiple bases are simply superior. Consider if you had 1 500 mineral base and I had 8 bases with 50 minerals each- ( I am giving up a 100 mineral difference to prove a point)

On turn 1, you can build a "something"-- It can be an expensive something but you can only build ONE. I build 8 choppers, rushing enough to ensure a 10 mineral carryover. After 4 turns, I have 32 choppers , or 16 choppers, 6 probeships and 10 drop units-- or 32 probeships --- and you have 4 super duper units or 4 great facilities. Oh and if a secret Project is available, I will build it in one turn, on the turn I get the tech.

Simply put, going for such a massive mineral base ignores

1. cashing in crawlers towards Secret projects
2 upgrading crawlers
3. creating shell units to be upgraded
4. the flexibility of multiple build queues
5. The risk in putting so much in one base--
6. the benefits of rushbuilding and the fact that only 10 minerals are carried over to the next build

I have never had even a 200 mineral base-- I never saw the point as I had enough energy coming in to rush almost everything I needed anyway.

Last edited by Flubber on 28-05-2003 at 20:18

	28-05-2003 20:39									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Last thing

I will have to check to see if I can trigger an absolute stop to ecodamage, some final limit. However I suspect that this was not what happened. As Ned has pointed out, the number of minerals you can produce per base without causing any ecodamage is increased by one mineral for each and every fungal explosion and by a further one for each and every tree farm/hybrid forset/centauri preserve or temple of planet ( I'll just say treefarms for the rest of the post but I mean all 4) BUILT after the first fungal bloom. I suspect that what happened to you was that the number of blooms and facilities were enough that even a super high mineral base was insufficient to do further damage. You probably had several dozen blooms and a fair number of treefarms.

So you may have made a discovery unless what you saw could not be explained by this phenomenon. To test this you would have to ramp up the mineral production even further and build no further treefarms to see if you can cause another bloom

An easier method to avoid ecodamage is a s follows --a player could assign two or three bases to do nothing but build tree farms after the first bloom ( build and then sell off since the formula depends on the number of treefarms "built", not "in existence") . So you trigger a bloom as soon as possible and don't finish any treefarms until after that bloom as any prior treefarms will apparently not add to the clean mineral limit of the base. Building 50 treefarms would mean that all your 50 mineral bases are totally clean. If you have 30 bases with all 4 facilities built then that 120 clean minerals right there.

The link is here to the article http://apolyton.net/misc/column/175_ecodamage.shtml

I have also bumped a thread of most useful strategies. I learned a lot from what the other posters considered to be " most useful"..

edit --to clarify that there are 4 facilities that impact clean minerals

Last edited by Flubber on 28-05-2003 at 23:28

	28-05-2003 23:37									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well, I was going to reply to Chab with a nice long-winded post, explaining the weaknessess of his 500-mineral producing base, but Flubber seems to have beaten me to it. Let me just say that after one planetbuster, he has 0 bases producing 0 minerals, and I have 19 bases producing 50 mins each. And the last time I transcended, I did it in one turn, having banked and upgraded a ton of gravship crawlers from the four corners of my map-wide empire.

	28-05-2003 23:58									#18
	Remove this text

Hey CEO Aaron

Yup-- I was long-winded-- but there was just so MUCH I disagreed with in Chabs post

Anyone that plays MP long, learns to spread out the productive capacity and the secret projects-- never make it so an opponent can cripple you by hitting One base

As for transcending, I can't IMAGINE taking longer than a turn to do it. Last couple of times, I had enough energy, crawlers etc to build both the voice and ascent about 5 times over. heck the games almost over so you can cash in everything!!

	29-05-2003 07:56									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Heh, I never meant to imply that your reply was too long, only that there was alot to be said on matter. Preach, brother!

	29-05-2003 08:11									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Global warming and rising sea levels tend to occur right around my 5th planet buster attack.

	31-05-2003 02:17									#21
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Flubber rushing enough to ensure a 10 mineral carryover

What is the significance of ensuring a 10 mineral carryover?

	31-05-2003 03:02									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Then you can rush again without penalty the next turn.

-Jam

	31-05-2003 19:10									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Jamski Then you can rush again without penalty the next turn. -Jam

Exactly right . . . In my better bases ( with morale enhancements) I am trying to pump out a unit per turn. I will rush enough minerals so that the bought minerals plus the ones to be produced will equal the mineral cost of the unit +10. No minerals beyond this will be carried over while having less than 10 minerals "existing" GREATLY increases the cost to rush build .

	01-06-2003 08:25									#24
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Let me try to understand it. So you are saying suppose you are building a rover this turn and your base produces 5 minerals per turn then you rush the full amount plus 5 mineral so you will have 10 minerals left for the next turn?

	01-06-2003 09:40									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by HongHu Let me try to understand it. So you are saying suppose you are building a rover this turn and your base produces 5 minerals per turn then you rush the full amount plus 5 mineral so you will have 10 minerals left for the next turn?

Yes

The 10 minerals carry over and you can rush another unit next turn at "regular" cost

	01-06-2003 12:01									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

(taking a PBEM break after just noticing that Flubber had been practicing his stealing of an SP out from under someone on me (who hadn't built it in 1 turn thinking he was otherwise occupied building his own SP) and so reduced to leaping at the opportunity to get whatever small measure of revenge is possible by jumping on his misstatements here)

quote: quote: Originally posted by HongHu Let me try to understand it. So you are saying suppose you are building a rover this turn and your base produces 5 minerals per turn then you rush the full amount plus 5 mineral so you will have 10 minerals left for the next turn? Originally posted by Flubber Yes The 10 minerals carry over and you can rush another unit next turn at "regular" cost

Well, not exactly .

Unless the twilight zone has visited a change in SMAC/X behavior on me since the last time I looked, if your base's production is only 5, the most carry-forward you can get is 5, any additional investment you might make will be lost. That is why it is helpful to get a base's production up to at least 10, so that if you are rolling in money, you can rush every turn without ever having to pay double.

	02-06-2003 02:34									#27
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by johndmuller (taking a PBEM break after just noticing that Flubber had been practicing his stealing of an SP out from under someone on me (who hadn't built it in 1 turn thinking he was otherwise occupied building his own SP) and so reduced to leaping at the opportunity to get whatever small measure of revenge is possible by jumping on his misstatements here)

right back -- I CAN build more than one SP at a time


As for my misstatement, I confess that I am usually only rushing with bases that produce in EXCESS of 10 minerals where you have to calculate how much LESS than full price is optimum. So no twilight zone . . just a guy flipping out an answer without checking it over

	02-06-2003 08:10									#28
	Put an end to popups!

Ok, now I'm more confused. I just learned not long ago that you shouldn't rush the full amount to get 0 turn left, you should rush the full amount less 1 year and you'll have the unit the next year. Now I learn that you should actually rush more than the full amount. Do these two techniques apply to different time periods like the first one early game and the second late game?

As for the rush more than full amount technique, suppose you have something full cost is 40 and your mineral output is 20 then you should rush 30? or should you rush 50?

How does this interact with the stockpile energy bug?

	02-06-2003 08:29									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sorry double post

	02-06-2003 08:30									#30
	Put an end to popups!

For facilities you should rush the number of energy credits needed to produce exactly 10 minerals more than the build cost.

For example you are building a facility that requires 100 minerals. You have 40 minerals already toward it and your base produces 25 minerals in excess of support requirements. Obviously you could spend 120 ec to rush the 60 minerals . 10 would be carried over but 15 minerals would be "lost".

Instead rush less than the full cost-- in this case 90 ec would be enough to rush 45 minerals and have a carryove of minerals. Or you could spend 70 ec which would be just enough to complete the facility.


None of this impacts the stockpile energy bug except to the extent completing anything allows the double counting of the minerals toward a build and then toward energy. Buildin to the exact cost or having a carryover are irrelevant