30-06-2003 14:47									#91
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever all i remember from that trip was the drinking , the civing, the baseball and the golf.... oh and of course, the EATING....

Baseball? If you say something other than Cubs I'm prepared to dissolve any incipient enviousness of those within traveling distance to the Gathering.

BTW, if you played on a "donut world" could you conceivably get 4 cities using one whale? Not that MPers would play a donut world, unless they're really nuts…

	30-06-2003 15:00									#92
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What is a donut world

EDIT:, Ok, got the concept, but can you mod civ this far that you can make those? Then we could also play on globes and doublesided flat worlds, tunneling to that SSC on the other side of the map

Last edited by atawa on 30-06-2003 at 15:22

	30-06-2003 15:22									#93
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by War4ever its too hard to police...thats what its good for...

Again: running 2nd computer is also hard to police.
A player that would black-click though it would be forbidden is a cheater and he does use the 2nd computer now.

Another good point on not black-clicking is that it would bring a trusting atmosphere. Every newcomer would see that we don't cheat here. It is always hard to rob a man who trust you.

I proposed the following rule in another thread:
When loading a saved file: Try not see cities&units stats; report if these stats were noticed by error (so that others can do it too).
It is not easy not to see these stats but it helps trust too.

	30-06-2003 15:28									#94
	Put an end to popups!

I like the no black clicking rule It would greatly enhance the fun of exploration, nowadays I know excactly how an island is shaped before even landing on it.

quote: I proposed the following rule in another thread: When loading a saved file: Try not see cities&units stats; report if these stats were noticed by error (so that others can do it too). It is not easy not to see these stats but it helps trust too.

This is a feature that only exists in MP, therefore I believe it was put there for a reason. I personaly like it as you see wars break out if people check unitcount and discover they have a lot more units, making the other guy to switch production from vans to units.

	30-06-2003 17:43									#95
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Black clicking on enemy cities is not that rare. At least once or twice a game I'll do a click to recenter the screen and it won't recenter. Would that make me a cheat? But if I use a second computer, I know I would be.

And once again. Playing on our little rocks, everyone is usually on continent one, so black clicking for land shape isn't very effective. I can see your point, but most of the players we play with don't seem to care enough about it to argue it's use/not use.

RAH

	01-07-2003 11:48									#96
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i have to agree with Rah on this one....black clicking can be accidental......

No you cannot use more than two cities sharing resources on the o axis

Straybow, it was clemens looking for win 300

	01-07-2003 15:32									#97
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by rah At least once or twice a game I'll do a click to recenter the screen and it won't recenter. Would that make me a cheat?

No. Everybody knows it is possible to do it in error. But maybe you should warn the opponent you did it.

I tested black-clicking on a city now. If you right-click then the screen always centers.
Only problem is that you may need to press 'v' to get back to the 'units mode'. But I think it is worth of the effort.

	01-07-2003 18:41									#98
	Full PM-box? Change here!

BTW centering map by right-clicking in place of left-clicking is safer since you cannot unfortify your unit.

	01-07-2003 18:57									#99
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hmmm SP thinking.
If you click during someone elses turn, (which is 98% of the time I use it) you can't unfortify by accident.
And with instant fortify in MP, even if you unfortify a unit by accident, you can place him back in fortify unless you have already fortified him that turn.

But again, it's a group preference, and no one in our group has complained about it.

	01-07-2003 21:46									#100
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I can't imagine how do you play with black-clicking. Do you all start to click heavily on the map in turn 2 or 3, until you find cities, then send units in that direction?

Or do it only some of players?

	01-07-2003 22:32									#101
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Actually I use it quite infrequently. Early in the game if I recognize the hut pattern (or use hutfinder) and I have a choice between two possible hut locations, I'll click on both to see if one is an inland sea.

Sometimes I'll try to define an inland sea to see the fastest way around. When you're on cont. 1, you can't use it to outline the coast.

And in the midgame, If I uncover a whale and I'm near someone's territory, I'll click on the squares that reach the whale to see if it's already in use.

Or if i move a unit 3 squares away from one of my cities and I just happen to notice that it's now closer to another city, I may click to see where it is.

Other than these not frequent situations, I don't use it. I never just start black clicking to search for cities, it would drive me crazy.

Maybe that's why I really don't mind it being used. I really don't use it that much so I don't think it's a big deal. If someone else wants to blackclick all night, that's his problem. There are many ways to locate enemy cities, black clicking is the most boring. I play civ to have fun, not be bored.

	01-07-2003 23:47									#102
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Needless to say... rah and my approach to it are similar. I rarely use it, except for in the situations rah mentions. I don't just keep randomly clicking... I don't see the point of that, and it is very boring.

	01-07-2003 23:58									#103
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i use it if i discover a rivals unit, and i think it might be close to home ..ie a warrior

	02-07-2003 00:01									#104
	Put an end to popups!

But dont' you just use it if your unit which discovers the rival is showing closer to one of his cities,, Otherwise that's a lot of black to click.

	02-07-2003 00:03									#105
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yes, especially early in the game, i want to know that that whale four squares away is already in use...

its a shame all the things that we do that ruin the exploration now......the game is tainted

	02-07-2003 00:05									#106
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There's still plenty left to explore. Like using hutfinder just to find out that 75% of the possible huts are in water, and 75% of the possible specials are fish or coal.

	02-07-2003 00:09									#107
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oh boy, thats fun.....i know hutfinder doesn't tell you what the hut or specials will be , but IMO, it ruins some of the fun....

but its easier on us old guys

	02-07-2003 00:25									#108
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And it does speed up the game. Which is the main reason I tolerate it.

	02-07-2003 00:28									#109
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but does it really....if you have your graphs out, you can just go OH>.... its this one....hutfinder slows the game b/c some peeps take too long while examining every farking hut and or special pattern around them for the next 500 years

	02-07-2003 00:45									#110
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It may slow down that first turn you find a hut, but after that it saves lots of time. As long as you just look during others turns.

	02-07-2003 00:50									#111
	Increase Your PM Length

i guess its b/c we all get our first hut at different times...and when your trashed....even the hutfinder appears hazy

	02-07-2003 00:52									#112
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Unless I've been playing golf prior, I'm usually not that trashed when the game starts, Unless it's the late game

	02-07-2003 00:57									#113
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Luke i am your father..........

i have to listen to it, i think i know best

	02-07-2003 01:12									#114
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by rah If someone else wants to blackclick all night, that's his problem.

But if you don't know if the opponent does it or not then you cannot estimate time when he could be able find you.

quote: There are many ways to locate enemy cities, black clicking is the most boring.

near to city 'XXX' in city window
bribe cost for capital
What else?

quote: Originally posted by War4ever i know hutfinder doesn't tell you what the hut or specials will be , but IMO, it ruins some of the fun

I agree that the best situation is to be a newbie. But some fun is ruined (also without the hutfinder) after you find out there are some patterns. More you know these pattern, more of fun is out. Theoretically, after lot of studying you can understand patterns perfectly so that you need no Hutfinder.

	02-07-2003 01:20									#115
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yep.

But back to the black clicking, In general, would you say that you don't use it much? I'm trying to show that it isn't a big deal because we all don't use it much.

Rich

	02-07-2003 01:40									#116
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quote: Originally posted by rah I'm trying to show that it isn't a big deal because we all don't use it much.

But if you say in your rules that it is allowed then I am prepared to think that everybody does it and that in 3900BC everybody knows where I am. And I would adapt my strategy to this.

Although it is not used frequently with rah rules I never know the moment when my opponent uses it and knows about my city.

	02-07-2003 01:49									#117
	Increase the size of your Attachments

if you come with a warrior from the west, its safe to assume your northwest or south west....

usually were to busy micromanaging to black click...

only eyes knows where your capital is right off the bat......

	02-07-2003 01:54									#118
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Due to his friend "skill"

and no, we won't know where you cap is in 3900, (unless you start 8 squares away from where I start)

	02-07-2003 02:36									#119
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by rah Due to his friend "skill" and no, we won't know where you cap is in 3900, (unless you start 8 squares away from where I start)

damm i hate that in a three man......what a waste..always two guys fighting over good resources too

	02-07-2003 02:51									#120
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It can be worse in a four man when three are tight and the fourth gets a free ride.