26-05-2003 09:53									#1
	Ice skating is not a sport, it's an art Increase Your PM Length

I think ice skating is an art. In sports, you have concrete scoring. In ice skating, judges judge who is the best. The criteria for judging ice skating is who did the best tricks and who looked the best, but in sports the objects is to win on scoring. Ice skating is also considered a form of expression. This is art. And in ice skating, if you have better style you'll get a better score. In sports style doesn't matter at all.

	26-05-2003 10:12									#2
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All sports have officials either judging the sport or monitoring that the rules are followed, which is often a judgement call. Even ones with 'concrete scoring' as you put it.

	26-05-2003 10:13									#3
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I require a vomit smilie.

	26-05-2003 10:22									#4
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Yes, but in ice skating whether you win or lose is completely based on judging. The judge decides who wins and who loses. Judges (refs) in other sports just call things just when someone isn't playing by the rules, that's their purpose.

	26-05-2003 10:44									#5
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Yup. Ice skating is a performance art.


But more importantly, Jamie Sale is hot. (She's the Canadian who got cheated out of the medal by the French judge.)

	26-05-2003 13:19									#6
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Yes it's art not less than sport. In skating your purpose is to be better, and not faster, but this sportic part is phisical strength of skaters

	26-05-2003 14:37									#7
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It's not an art! It's dead conservative, innovation is punished... Totally against the Heideggerian ideal.

	26-05-2003 15:08									#8
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It's a symptom of the evil capitalist oppressors!

	26-05-2003 15:16									#9
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No seriously. Any artform that has not progressed aesthetically in the last century or so can't possibly be considered art- the entire creative meaning of every performance is copied wholesale from someone else. Now, if Ice Skating had taken into account the advances of modern dance since the 1920s and judged entrants on artistic merit rather than kitch-value "grace", then yeah, possibly.

	26-05-2003 15:20									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Now, if Ice Skating had taken into account the advances of modern dance since the 1920s and judged entrants on artistic merit rather than kitch-value "grace", then yeah, possibly.

What is kitsch?

	26-05-2003 15:27									#11
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Kitsch? Means vaguely "over-the-top, vulgar, sentimental bad taste". Which ice-skating definately is in its professional form (Disney on Ice etc.) and increasingly is in the competetive form as well.

Although these days Kitsch is a positively loaded word. I don't mean Kitsch as in "knowingly ironic bad taste", I mean it in its original form.

	26-05-2003 15:32									#12
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Yeah, but AFAIK there is no general definition of what is seen as "bad taste" exactly. Thats highly subjective.

	26-05-2003 15:33									#13
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Any sport that can't be measured in number of goals, meters or seconds sucks.

	26-05-2003 17:16									#14
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Yeah, but AFAIK there is no general definition of what is seen as "bad taste" exactly. Thats highly subjective.

As far as I'm concerned there are readily-measurable qualities of aesthetics and artistic intent, without which we humans wouldn't agree on the many things that we agree on.

Figure-skating in its current form is one-dimensional and does not carry any underlying or aesthetic meaning that hasn't already been explored. Ergo it's not art.

	26-05-2003 17:25									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed As far as I'm concerned there are readily-measurable qualities of aesthetics and artistic intent, without which we humans wouldn't agree on the many things that we agree on.

Which are those qualities? AFAIK in nearly every field of art (music, movies, painting etc....) people have different opinions about what is good or bad taste, what is aesthetic or not.

	26-05-2003 19:46									#16
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I once skimmed a Critical Theory textbook that argued that all critical appraisal that we subject art to could be reduced to three doctrines: complexity, unity and intensity. Sure, we might disagree on what aspects of an artwork carry each quality and to what extent, but we can all (I think) quite easily comprehend both that each of these properties is a good thing, and why this is so. Any disagreement that will arise will be because someone finds one of the qualities lacking whereas another does not, not because he thinks the doctrine of that quality is bollocks.

That way, although you might disagree with me that Figure Skating is shallow, you will agree that depth, taken as totally distinct from other considerations, is a good thing.

Last edited by Buck Birdseed on 26-05-2003 at 20:09

	26-05-2003 20:01									#17
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Figure skating is a shamefully rotten sport, every single competition I've seen awarded average skaters who just had the luck of being american or russian- or the evil french!
Peizerat/Anissina booo!

	27-05-2003 01:10									#18
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod Yes, but in ice skating whether you win or lose is completely based on judging. The judge decides who wins and who loses. Judges (refs) in other sports just call things just when someone isn't playing by the rules, that's their purpose.

So using this logic, boxing is an 'art' not a sport. As is synchro swimming, diving, ariel ski jumping, all of gymnastics, mogul skiing... There goes half the events in the Olympics.

All sports have a component which is hard to judge 100% objectively. In the 100 metres, the US decided to neither ban Carl Lewis, nor report him to the IOC anti-doping committee after he peed positive. A judgement call.

In baseball the umpire judges whether pitches are balls or strikes. Games are won and lost on his decisions. Umpires have different strike zones and a case could be made that the NL and AL have different strike zones.

Basketball is a game of subtle infractions. Part of the game is seeing how much you can get away with before a foul is called by one of the judges... oops... referees.

Ever see a Brazilian soccer player go down as if hit by a gunshot and then make a miraculous recovery once it becomes evident that no penalty will be called? Calling penalties is a judgement call so some players will try hard to influence that judgement.

Partly because it is so fast, the ref in hockey has a bigger influence on the outcome than most other team sports. Some penalties are reasonably clear cut but most are judgement calls. A penalty in the first may not be a penalty in overtime. A single split second misjudgement on the referee's part could easily cost your team the game.

Snowboarding? Half pipe is judged. Slalom snowboarding? A judgement call on behalf of an IOC board first denied a gold medal, then later awarded to the same boarder.

Tennis? Whoops! Line judges. Ski jumping? Whoops! The landing is judged...

	27-05-2003 19:10									#19
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Whoops! A medal stolen!