26-05-2003 10:30									#1
	play the world - espionage Full PM-box? Change here!

I haven't bought the expansion yet, but I was curious - does it do anything to change the (IMHO) awful espionage system currently existing in CIV III. I mean, maybe it is just my incompetence with the game, but paying $3k to steak a technology I will research in 6 turns just doesn't seem worth it? Thanks...

	26-05-2003 11:00									#2
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NO change that I could see.I rarely use it. Just once in a while to see troop layouts for nukes and for a lark.

	26-05-2003 12:48									#3
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I would argue the espionage system in Civ 2 is more awful than the one in Civ III.

The one in Civ III is far more restrictive and costly. But I agree with you that spy -ops seems overpriced and highly ineffective.

The point of espionage in Civ 3 is to de-emphasize it. You can plant spies and investigate cities fairly cheaply. That will give you the bulk of the military intelligence you need.

The other stuff, such as inciting revolt/defection, undermining production, stealing techs, have been made more expensive and more difficult to de-emphasize them. And I think for good reasons.

	26-05-2003 13:20									#4
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The game can be modded so espionage will be cheaper but then there will be espionage all the time...just try it

dexters , agree with your view on civ2. The espionage in civ2 were in fact so horrible that the strongest unit in the game were the spy....

	26-05-2003 13:53									#5
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Definitely better than civ2 I have to agree but maybe a little to inefective now due to the price.

but like bongo says you can mod the costs.

	26-05-2003 15:36									#6
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investigating cities and nukes work much better than propaganda or sabotage


Seriously though, I think that prices should be tweaked down a little.. Having a game full of espionage would probably suck, but I should see at least one tech stolen or production sabataged..

If it gets tweaked down enough that would also give an excuse for city improvements made to hamper espionage and who knows, maybe a NSA wonder or even Homeland Security (barf).

Last edited by ghen on 27-05-2003 at 03:03

	26-05-2003 15:51									#7
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A john aschcroft peaceful leader?

	26-05-2003 21:10									#8
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quote: Originally posted by dexters A john aschcroft peaceful leader?

Jesus loves me yes I know, for the voices tell me so ...

	27-05-2003 08:40									#9
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Good comments, all! Didn't realize you could edit espionage costs. I think I will try that once just to see what happens.

Thanks for the responses! (really liked the NSA wonder or improvement). Also, Civ 2 allowed you to put spies in your own cities to act as counter-espionage, didn't it?

Thanks again all!

	27-05-2003 08:51									#10
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An espionage-filled game would be cool.

	27-05-2003 12:41									#11
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Raleigh , spies in cities would act as counter-esionage in civ2 but only against sabotage and tech-stealing. They did not stop you from investigating cities or (most important)inciting revolts.

I haven't modded spy costs myself but I read a thread where someone else had(don't remember who ) and he said the AI went completely bananas and conducted espionage all the time(he lowered the cost by 90%)

	27-05-2003 12:57									#12
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Heh.

	27-05-2003 13:03									#13
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The single biggest improvement to be made to espionage is to make planting a spy have a 95% or even 100% success rate. After all, it usually costs at least a couple hundred gold.

And what I hate is the way Firaxis have rigged it so that you can try once per turn but if you fail to plant a spy it will automatically fail on each consecutive turn. It should be random every time you try, and at the very least the option should be grayed out if you aren't going to be allowed even a chance of planting a spy.

As I was saying ... make planting a spy automatic, like establishing an embassy. Maybe then people will be more willing to try out the espionage options.

	27-05-2003 13:46									#14
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A couple of improvements in PTW espionage wouldn't go a miss in my books..simple things like being able to see what form of government a certain AI has once you've actually got a spy into their capital. Since you can find out from the military advisor screen but not espionage screen??
Also you could have a display of an AI's amount of gold up on espionage screen after you have made contact with them, since you find this out anyway simply by going to talk to them!

These two things would make my plotting alot quicker.

Last edited by HAND on 27-05-2003 at 14:28

	27-05-2003 14:15									#15
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In previous civs you would get all sorts of information just by having an embassy; gold, techs, government, capitol, foreign relations, cities. You can still get all this info by talking to them but I really miss that advisor telling me that 'the romans just invented sliced bread' or 'the aztecs moved their capitol to mingapulco'

	27-05-2003 14:34									#16
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quote: Originally posted by bongo but I really miss that advisor telling me that 'the romans just invented sliced bread' or 'the aztecs moved their capitol to mingapulco'

just invented sliced bread!

	27-05-2003 17:19									#17
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hi ,

we should get a small or why not a huge wonder ; gps sat , it should let us anywhere we want to look at the map ones a turn or ones every two or five turns at a square of lets say 4 by 4 , .....

have a nice day

	27-05-2003 20:01									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

At least they made the process somehow easier in PtW, consolidating most things on a single screen.

	28-05-2003 01:12									#19
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Yes, much easier in PtW. I would think that instead of tweaking the $ amounts (which is all we can do right now) having a spy in a civ should generate a small science boost, like 5% of what that civ is spending on science. That civ doesn't loose it, we just get to copy it is all. Might not make that much sence unless the civ in question has a tech that we don't however.

	28-05-2003 01:14									#20
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Yes, much easier in PtW. I would think that instead of tweaking the $ amounts (which is all we can do right now) having a spy in a civ should generate a small science boost, like 5% of what that civ is spending on science. That civ doesn't loose it, we just get to copy it is all. Might not make that much sence unless the civ in question has a tech that we don't however.

that is one great idea...

right now a spy has no continuous effects except for military info

cheers

	28-05-2003 02:09									#21
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quote: Originally posted by HAND A couple of improvements in PTW espionage wouldn't go a miss in my books..simple things like being able to see what form of government a certain AI has once you've actually got a spy into their capital. Since you can find out from the military advisor screen but not espionage screen?? Also you could have a display of an AI's amount of gold up on espionage screen after you have made contact with them, since you find this out anyway simply by going to talk to them! These two things would make my plotting alot quicker.

You can always see what government a civ is in.

	28-05-2003 05:52									#22
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Is there a way to mod the chances of succeding with spy operations?

	28-05-2003 06:29									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Louis XXIV Is there a way to mod the chances of succeding with spy operations?

If you smash your computer, I guarantee that all your spies won't succeed.

	28-05-2003 07:04									#24
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My spies have enough problems suceeding

I want them to have an easier time

But thanks for the tip

	28-05-2003 15:04									#25
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker You can always see what government a civ is in.

I just meant on the espionage screen..

	28-05-2003 16:20									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Louis XXIV Is there a way to mod the chances of succeding with spy operations?

hi ,

yes

it depends on the civ do , .... and the numbers of try's , ....

have a nice day