26-05-2003 14:01									#1
	Terrain improvements you should /should not do? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I started this thread, because I wanted to summarize the know-how about the terrain improvements. I read different threads, where I found what terreain improvements in which government types are useless or very usefull.

I mean things like: mining the shielded grassland or mining cattle on plains.... Or the "over-irrigation" in despotism.

I think a lot of civ3 players are wasting their workers' time for improvements, that doesn't bring anything.

Please post here all the tips or tricks you know!

cheers

cumi

	26-05-2003 15:53									#2
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mining shielded grassland and cows give you +1 shields just like mining normal grassland or plains not sure why you wouldn't do it if you need shields and its not already irrigated..


The only thing I know of is about irrigating in despotism, you can only irrigate plains, wheat, cattle, etc. I think to get the bonus

	26-05-2003 17:47									#3
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quote: Originally posted by ghen mining shielded grassland and cows give you +1 shields just like mining normal grassland or plains not sure why you wouldn't do it if you need shields and its not already irrigated..

Actually, I always mine the shielded grasslands.

I also mine the grasslands without shield, but after despotism I irrigate them.

	26-05-2003 19:33									#4
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I always mine the shielded grasslands as well. You do get the extra shield which I really like. Unlike cumi though I irrigate the shielded grasslands when I leave despotism. This since a golden age gives you an extra shield from tiles that ALREADY produce at least one shield. Hence you'll get two extra shields during your golden age with this tactic instead of one.

	26-05-2003 19:43									#5
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How about plains? Grasslands are pretty much a no-brainer during despotism but plains are a trickier lot, do you irrigate or mine?

Usually depends on the city IMO, sometimes I irrigate some of the plains and mine the others to achieve a nice balance of food and shields (usually on cities which are surrounded by plains)

NEVER mine wheat or cow plains in despotism, I've seen some people do it and it's a total waste of food...

	26-05-2003 21:28									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen NEVER mine wheat or cow plains in despotism, I've seen some people do it and it's a total waste of food...

I'll sometimes mine a wheat on plains -- especially in a city near flood plains where food is plentiful and shields hard to come by.

Although titled "Improving Your Opening Play Sequences," cracker's tutorial on the early game really focuses on tile improvements and is the best I've seen -- click on the link in the opening post of this thread.

Catt

	26-05-2003 22:39									#7
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I always irrigate plains. Always. In all circumstances. Grasslands are of course trickier, but in my mind you should always irrigate plains. 1f2s just isn't as good for the long-term growth of the city like 2f1s is. If you need shields, mine the grasslands, hills, or deserts that are surely in the city radius (I have yet to found a city that was ENTIRELY on plains).

Here's one you should never do: Never chop down a forest with Game on it. 2f2s and you can road it. That's a pretty good deal, especially when the Game is on a Tundra square.

	26-05-2003 23:19									#8
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Nakar: but if this forest is on plains i f you chop it it will be 2f2s if mined, 3f1s if irrigated and a bonus from RR; RR bonus don't work on forest.

I played DyP, it's quite fun with improcments. When it comes time when you can irrigate or mine you should have all the tiles roaded so irrigation/mining goes very fast .
One thing is that that mine is available not till Middle Ages, but that's a different issue

	27-05-2003 12:27									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Nakar Gabab I have yet to found a city that was ENTIRELY on plains.

I had quite a lot of times cities with only plains and ocean available.

quote: Here's one you should never do: Never chop down a forest with Game on it. 2f2s and you can road it. That's a pretty good deal, especially when the Game is on a Tundra square.

Yep!

	27-05-2003 12:45									#10
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Question about clearing forest:

How do you know (in case that's on a grassland) if there is a simple grassland or shielded grassland under the forest?

	27-05-2003 13:20									#11
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You don't.

	27-05-2003 19:09									#12
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quote: Here's one you should never do: Never chop down a forest with Game on it. 2f2s and you can road it. That's a pretty good deal, especially when the Game is on a Tundra square.

On a tundra tile, I'd agree with you. Otherwise, I disagree. Especially if you're industrious. I've had situations where chopping the forest & irrigating the game got me to +4 or +5 food/turn. Irrigated game on grassland gives you 4 food (under despotism). Irrigated game on plains gives you 3f, 1s. Toss in the 10 shield bonus for chopping, and I'd say there certainly are situations where chopping the game is worthwhile.

-Arrian

	28-05-2003 16:47									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian On a tundra tile, I'd agree with you. Otherwise, I disagree. Especially if you're industrious. I've had situations where chopping the forest & irrigating the game got me to +4 or +5 food/turn. Irrigated game on grassland gives you 4 food (under despotism). Irrigated game on plains gives you 3f, 1s. Toss in the 10 shield bonus for chopping, and I'd say there certainly are situations where chopping the game is worthwhile. -Arrian

hi ,

even when you are industrious you should not do that , only if you can rebuild the forest in the same or next turn , ....

have a nice day

	28-05-2003 18:32									#14
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I disagree, Panag.

2 food, 2 shields
3 food, 1 shield
4 food, 0 shield

That's what you can get out of a game tile (unchooped, irrigated on plains/mined on grassland, irrigated on grassland) under despotism. Better goverments will improve the food output. But the balance, I believe, remains. 4 food and no shields is just as valueable as 2 food, 2 shields. It just depends on what that particular city needs. If the city is short on food, I'd chop & irrigate. If the city has lots of food, I'll ljust road it.

-Arrian

	28-05-2003 19:07									#15
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I also disagree. If I start near a game forest, I chop it immediately, industrious or not. Extra food tiles are scarce under despotism, since irrigation of simple grassland has no effect, and extra food = extra growth, which can be the make or break especially on higher difficulties. It's always possible to make shields by mining.

	28-05-2003 19:10									#16
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IIRC, +5 food and at least 8 shields will give you a settler farm producing every 4 turns (granary required), so irrigating the game is a no brainer if needed to reach that point.

I tend to mine all grassland early and then go back and irrigate later. Most plains get the water ditches early, but I often go back and mine some of that after Steam to get some extra shields. This gives a big boost when you have a factory and the Great Dam. Depends on how much pop you want in the city.

	28-05-2003 20:01									#17
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You can get a settler in 4 turns with 5 food surplus, if you have minimum 6 shields, 1 additional shield on a +2 food tile (like irrigated plains or mined grass) for the new citizen, and a forest in the city radius and the governor is set to maximize production.

- First turn you make +5=5 food, +6=6 shields.
- Second turn +5=10 food --> new citizen, auto-placed on the forest, +8=14 shields. Place the new citizen on the extra 2 food 1 shield tile
- Third turn you make +5=5 food, +7=21 shields.
- Fourth turn you make +5=10 food --> new citizen, auto-placed on the forest, +9=30 shields. Voilą, settler ready. Rinse, repeat.

	28-05-2003 22:41									#18
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Hey Ralph, that's heavy duty man.

Thanks!

	29-05-2003 00:54									#19
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Deciding between chopping/not chopping a forest game tile is a decision I often make. A lot of the time, I don't chop them. Sometimes I do if I feel the need for a lot of food (I'll almost always chop them if I can irrigate them early). Insta 2 food 2 shields is a HUGE production boost early, and it's not often I'm anxious to chop those tiles.

In choosing tile improvements, the idea is to get exactly what you want out of a city. It's often a 50/50 decision between mining/irrigating cow/wheat tiles, depending upon the situation. I like shields, and if there's sufficient food (2 or more cattle/wheat) I'll just mine them because I'm a big fan of production.

Grasslands I almost always mine, unless I'm transporting irrigation to cities which need it.

Plains are the trickiest terrain. To mine or irrigate? It depends on the food in the area. Ideally you want to get cities up to size 12 where they don't grow (0 food bonus) and have as many shields as possible. For example, in my current game I had my capital at size 12 with no extra food and 23 SPT with a good number of mined plains.

Railroads go everywhere, usually on mined tiles for more production. But by then it's a given.

	29-05-2003 03:03									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Deciding between chopping/not chopping a forest game tile is a decision I often make. A lot of the time, I don't chop them. Sometimes I do if I feel the need for a lot of food (I'll almost always chop them if I can irrigate them early). Insta 2 food 2 shields is a HUGE production boost early, and it's not often I'm anxious to chop those tiles.

I always chop a few of them to get a granary or a barrack up quick. Once I get either, I leave the forests for a while until I can better use them for another improvement. Usually I build only settlers and warriors or archers in the beginning, after my early wars, I switch to builder mode and I might chop the other forests for a temple or a marketplace.

	29-05-2003 19:33									#21
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quote: How about plains? Grasslands are pretty much a no-brainer during despotism but plains are a trickier lot, do you irrigate or mine?

I'll mine, and tend to leave the mines after gov. change, too.

	31-05-2003 22:43									#22
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Chop all forest (unless a key defensive point).

Irrigate all plains.

Mine all grassland, and then later irrigate shielded grassland. Exceptions for bonus tiles.

Common exception: Cities in hills / mountains, or primarily sea / ocean.

Rare exception: An overabundance of food bonus tiles.

I agree with Catt, cracker's treatise at CFC is a must-read (hmmm...).