26-05-2003 16:02									#1
	Best civ choice for Total War scenario? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

All right, I'm sorry for double posting, as I've posted upcoming two posts already in another thread (Next AU Course after AU 401) , but I think this topic deserves a thread of its own. I'm curious to your opinions.

(and again sorry mods )

AJ

PS The Spanish couldn't be included due to poll limit
(and that's even pre-Conquests !! guess Apolyton has to upgrade the poll options )

Last edited by AJ Corp. The FAIR on 26-05-2003 at 16:09

	26-05-2003 16:10									#2
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I've also read Sirp's total war adventures and I believe it will be a tough experience.

I usually play emperor and will do the same in upcoming Total War AU, but I think that also might prove very, very difficult.

I've already started wondering about which civ to select.

Main difficulty I foresee in a TW scenario is the science progress: not being able to trade for science or not getting it by peace treaties goes directly opposite my playing style.
Therefore you'll have to research everything yourself.
A scientific civ then comes in useful considering cheaper libs and univs and four free techs.

Some other elements to consider civ choice: as you'll be waging war from the beginning of the game militaristic seems quite useful, especially for the Great Leaders. Hopefully you'll have some very early on to build a wonder, because undoubtly you'll be so far behind in techs that you mustn't even dream about building/rushing wonders yourself.

Another aspect is the UU: you'll need one from the beginning on to profit as most as possible from them.
I love the Chinese Riders, but they'll be worth rather nothing later on: when you get the required tech, AI civs will by then probably already have cavalry in their hands.

So I understand Sirp's choice for the Greeks: Hoplite has a long time of usefulness, scientific brings in extra techs and faster research and commercial allows you to have a larger/wealthier empire, which is quite useful considering the fact that you'll have to aim for a conquest victory in a TW scenario.

Your thoughts on civ choice for TW?

AJ

	26-05-2003 16:10									#3
	Put an end to popups!

What about traits? (I hope map is standard/large, continents)

Expansionist is definitely good: you'll get free techs and map knowledge early on, giving you a better chance to keep up in science at least in ancient era.

Industrious: always very useful

Commercial: IMO there are better traits to pick for this scenario, but ... commercial civs have alphabet from the beginning on, allowing you to get maybe the most important Great Wonder for this game, The Great Library! So paradoxally commercial is also a top trait for this scenario.

Scientific: faster libs/univs so faster research and (hopefully if you survive till last ) four free techs. Important trait.

Militaristic: one could consider this a top trait for a TW scenario, but ... the problem is that the GL's you'll generate won't have the same impact as in normal game settings considering the fact you'll probably be so far behind in techs that the Wonder Race is almost exclusively reserved for the AI civs.

Religious: always ok are faster temples and cathedrals, but the flexibility of switching governments doesn't apply for this scenario, as you'll probably be stuck for monarchy (perhaps later on communism) almost whole game.

So what's the best trait combination in your opinion?

(I'll be thinking about it first before answering already )

AJ

	26-05-2003 16:35									#4
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What about UU's?

I'll immediately exclude following UU's as IMO they'll come too late to attribute to your 'success':

Panzer, F-15, Cossack,Sipahi and for same reasoning also early medieval UU's such as Rider, Samurai, War Elephant, Musketeer, Man O War, Ansar Warrior, Berserk, Conquistador, Hwach'a and Keshik.

This could be discussably as ingame you might build Great Library and indeed profit from early medieval UU's or you might even get to medieval era quite fast when you've picked an expansionist/scientific civ.

But in general circonstances, ancient UU's might prove most useful, leaving Gallic Swordsman, Numidian Mercenary,Legionary, Hoplite, Jaguar Warrior, Mounted Warrior, War Chariot, Bowman, Immortals and Impi to choose from.

Again, ealy medieval UU's could be worthwhile too IF you achieve medieval era before or directly behind AI civs. Tricky if you'd ask me.

Your thoughts?

AJ

	26-05-2003 17:32									#5
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Ok, my 'quotation system' for TW scenario:

top traits: A
--> commercial (alphabet Great Library!)
expansionist
scientific
useful traits: B
--> industrious
militaristic
not quite useful TW: C
--> religious

top UU's: ancient era: A
useful UU's: medieval era: B
unuseful: ind and mod era: C

And the winner is ... yep Sirp's choice:

1. Greece AAA

2. Zulu ABA Persia ABA Carthago ABA
Korea AAB England AAB Russia AAB

3. Iroquois ACA Babylon ACA

4. Mongols ABB Ottomans ABB Scandinavia ABB
Rome BBA China ABB France ABB

5. Celts BBA

6. Arabs ACB Spanish ACB Germany ABC India ACB
Aztecs BCA Egypt BCA Americans ABC

7. Japan BCB

For what it's worth (had too much spare time ). Many will depend on game style and personal preferences.

So my vote is ... Greece.

AJ

	26-05-2003 17:35									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Final request (then I'll shut up for a while ) :

vote for the civ that accords best to YOUR strategy/personal view. If you prefer other civ than Greece, please explain WHY.

AJ

	26-05-2003 22:33									#7
	Got spare money?

I argued Aztecs. Let me explain why.

The key to a Total War game is early victory. As you've said, you will fall behind in tech - EVENTUALLY. But early on, you can keep parity or even get ahead, depending on goodie hut payoffs. Thus it becomes essential to hit early and hit hard. Archer, swordsman, and horseman rushes seem the order of the day, but why stop there? The Jag is an excellent early swarm unit, in an era when most attackers have only even-odds against a Jag counterattack. Hit them hard and fast with a swift UU, and keep hitting them with horsemen when they become available. If the game persists, switch to knights, etc.

The Iroquois could be very good for their MW, but I don't find their trait combo all that useful. If I get Expansionist I'd rather have Scientific or Industrious than Religious, whereas Militaristic and Religious work swimmingly together.

The Persians are a wild-card, as always. Immortals could carry you to dominance before anyone has an effective counter. Let's just hope our enemies don't include Greece or Carthage (or worse, both).

	27-05-2003 02:51									#8
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Carthage.

I played a NIC game with them, which was basically Total War. They start off with Alphabet, and therefore close to the Great Library. They're Industrious, which is just good. And the Numidian Merc. is dominant against the AI for a big chunk of the game (the most important part).


Dominae

	27-05-2003 16:29									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

I've also considered Carthage as best choice, but in comparison to Greece:
1. Hoplite is cheaper than Num.Mercenary, allowing you more of them. Ok, Num Merc has 2 attack, but that's not so important as you'll better use horsemen/swordsmen
2. in a tough non tech whoring game such as this, scientific may be more valuable than industrious as it increases your research speed by having libs earlier on.
Besides, you'll have -if all goes well- more than enough slave workers to do the working

AJ

	27-05-2003 17:53									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

hi ,

the us of a , they dont get an early uu but its been made up thanks to its traits , ....

and ones that uu comes around , ......

they shoot down more planes then a regular fighter

have a nice day

	27-05-2003 18:34									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by AJ Corp. The FAIR I've also considered Carthage as best choice, but in comparison to Greece: 1. Hoplite is cheaper than Num.Mercenary, allowing you more of them. Ok, Num Merc has 2 attack, but that's not so important as you'll better use horsemen/swordsmen AJ

I believe much will depend on the map setting: if we play on an archipelago, we might not have horses (or even iron!). Therefore, a 'grunt' unit gives you more opportunities.
Alexman should tweak a nice little island with all the resources in it, only for people wanting to play it on Deity.

	27-05-2003 19:01									#12
	Best expansionist civ TW? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If playing on a decent landmass, so not archipelago, a case could be made for expansionist civs (as Panag did).
It could allow you to follow the tech race decently during ancient era.

Exp civs are Arabs, Mongols, Scandinavian, Iroquois, Russians, Americans, Zulus and Brittons.

My preferred choices then would be
Scandinavian, Iroquois and Zulus. Their UU's are very early (except Berserker, but acceptable because it has a decent period of best attacking stats). Especially the Zulu Impi could be a real harassment for AI civs, picking up workers, destroying strategic improvements and perhaps capturing settlers.

Iroquois MW would bring an early offensive supremacy.

If map not too big, might try
1. Greece
2. Zulu
3. Iroquois

AJ

	27-05-2003 19:06									#13
	Got spare money?

Carthage versus Greece:

Scientific is surely an important trait. But do not discount the importance of early speed in Total War! In a few TW test games yesterday, I found that I had to build a lot of early defensive units just to keep alive against the AI on Emperor. You really do need to start out very strong, and Carthage is better for this than Greece.

I must say that Persia is a fine choice, too.


Dominae

	27-05-2003 19:14									#14
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Persia & Carthage both sound like solid choices.

For non-scientific civs, I'm going to throw China into the discussion, just because of their early war prowess. They really do rock at early warfare, and can do a lot of damage with an ultra-early archer rush (where "rush" means punching out a few quick archers and sending them off into the darkness hoping to find easy targets). Fast terrain improvement + cheap barracks & walls. The UU may not be all that useful, but if things go well early on, that might not matter.

-Arrian