26-05-2003 19:02									#1
	Imperial City Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I know this was discussed not long ago....but what are we aiming to build in Imperial City.

I thought Sistine's Chapel was suggested, but this will go against our agreement with Lego.

quote: 4) GoW agrees to not attempt to build Sistine's Chapel and Bach's Cathedral as long as Legoland remains in the game.

The best I can do using the 490bc save is to slow down the Great Library to 69 turns away.

I know our GA will shorten this, but surely we should still have a shot at leo's workshop. ?



Can we get Vox to tell us how far away they are from completeing engineering ?

	26-05-2003 19:46									#2
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I'll ask Betahound about engineering,

I think that yes, it is best to delay the GL for Leo's as we can't snatch the Sistine Chapel from Lego (which is what I wanted to do)

	27-05-2003 04:48									#3
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I think that Vox want to get Leo's though. I'm not sure if they will sell it before they complete it (if they are building it at all).

	27-05-2003 05:04									#4
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I don't see why they would need it.

Their Immortals don't need upgrading until Replaceable Parts. Only thing left is Pikes, and Pikes-Riflemen is cheap and still a long way off.

On the other hand, horsemen-Riders is a 80g upgrade without Leo's. If anyone needs Leo's its us, plus, they get our Riders once we finish RP

	27-05-2003 05:30									#5
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they build warriors and upgrade them. Don't you see that they cut off the Iron to their main cities? They just upgrade them in their city right next to GS border.

	27-05-2003 05:49									#6
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You get to build Leo's when you get invention.
(But you need Engineering first)

I doubt Vox are saving shields to build anything at the moment...they are at war...one which they may lose if they dont devote every city to build warriors/immortals.

They are probably researching Engineering at 10% (or 1 scientist) or even worse.. have stopped researching it.

Then they / or us, will have to research Invention.

Thats a long time...if they are still alive, the only way they could do it, is if they held onto a great leader.
But again...they are fighting for their survival, so my guess is that they would use it to build an army.

Vox may want it, but I doubt they will get it. I dont recall us agreeing to let them have it, so my guess, is that it is up for grabs.

GS have no shield storage, but they may get another GL

Lego have agreed not to get it.

ND & RP ... Maybe
ND may have shields stored up like us.
RP will be in a world of pain very soon, and may be forced to switch, and lose their shields.

Here is another thought.. If RP have a city building shields. We declare war, so they decide to cut their losses and get the great library...what do we switch Imperial City to as a place holder ? I dont have the game sav available to check.

In Summary.. we have a chance, but we will have to do the math.

How long to invention ?
Can we delay our shields in Imperial City long enough?(We have to factor in our GA here). A simulation may be needed.

Regs

	27-05-2003 05:57									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 they build warriors and upgrade them. Don't you see that they cut off the Iron to their main cities? They just upgrade them in their city right next to GS border.

Yes but Leo's is still about 20-30 turns away from them (unless they get a leader). Do you honestly think the will forgo all forms of building fighting a war they will know they can't win? (I mean if you didn't win in 20 turns I think it's obvious it's a stalemate).

	27-05-2003 06:43									#8
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The problem is that Leo's is far away for us, too. Maybe as much as 40 turns; not less than 20. By that time, we will have chivalry and we will be on the warpath. Too late to upgrade horsemen!! I move that we just complete the great library, and hope we can get it before Lego (and it will be lego) researches education.

	27-05-2003 08:31									#9
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We need to ask ....

Vox..How far away are they from Engineering ?
Lego...How far away are they from Theology & Education ?

My guess is Lego would not be to far away.
So we get Great Library... which will give us what tech free ?

We get engineering from Vox anyway.
We get Theology & Education from Lego anyway.

So maybe we get Invention for free....if someone decides to go flat out and get it, and then resell it.

But I doubt it will happen before Lego get Education.

Therefore... I don’t see any value in the Great Library at all ... other than if we want a cultural win

I think we would get more value out of the Colossus, or Hanging Gardens. (We could get monarchy cheap from RP)

But again...it all depends on the math, and how long before Lego and Vox complete their respective techs.

We could always go for Leos Workshop...and if it doesn’t happen, switch to Hanging Gardens or Colossus for some shield loss. It is a pain to have a capital city tied up while we are at war...but ...I don’t know ??

The other option, is to screw Lego over and get the Sistines.... but I like to keep our already tattered rep our of the gutter completely.

Lets see what happens when we invade RP, and see how close their relationship is with Lego.

My guess is, that Lego will finance the war for RP, like they are doing for Vox. If they do, then maybe we can feel a little more justified with a screw you gesture and build Sistines.

	27-05-2003 12:09									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 The problem is that Leo's is far away for us, too. Maybe as much as 40 turns; not less than 20. By that time, we will have chivalry and we will be on the warpath. Too late to upgrade horsemen!! I move that we just complete the great library, and hope we can get it before Lego (and it will be lego) researches education.

The GL is all but useless for us. Lego will research Education in aprox ~15 turns, that's what Vondrack told me in the last chat about 3 days ago. Even if we manage to build it before, it won't net us any free techs as no-one has Engineering.

It's really a difficult decision. I honestly don't know what to suggest, I would love to get Leo's if anything to do some MAJOR warmongering later in the game. (sending Musketeers against GS would be sweet)

	27-05-2003 16:39									#11
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My vote is to take a gamble, and go for Leo's.

It means we have a capital that must sit idle while we are at war, but I think it worth the risk. ND is also in this war against RP, and will hopefully taking the brunt of the action. So maybe we can live without our capital.

We should have a backup though...Out of the remaining wonders, I think the Hanging Gardens maybe the only one worth while....but this means getting monarchy from RP.

Gotta do the math though.
we are 12 turns from Chivalry.
How many turns before we get engineering and study invention ?

Factor in a GA that will double our shields in Imperial City...It will be close.

	27-05-2003 16:51									#12
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Other backup plan ... Screw Lego and snatch Sistines.



Another Backup plan....
We get Chivalry in 12 turns...Lego gets education in 15 turns.

When Lego gets Education, they will hopefully go for Music Theory, as they seem to want LS Bachs Cathedral

So in 15 turns, we can study Astronomy....And build Copernicus Observatory.

	27-05-2003 18:11									#13
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The problem is what will we use for a placeholder for our shields if someone gets GL? Nothing that won't be built right away.

Let's see if RP is willing to sell monarchy. Then we can do hanging gardens.

Also, is colossus still available? If it is, it could be back-up in case RP doesn't sell monarchy to us. Colossus could help us in our upgrades by providing about 8 extra trade per turn.

	28-05-2003 03:53									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 The problem is what will we use for a placeholder for our shields if someone gets GL? Nothing that won't be built right away. Let's see if RP is willing to sell monarchy. Then we can do hanging gardens. Also, is colossus still available? If it is, it could be back-up in case RP doesn't sell monarchy to us. Colossus could help us in our upgrades by providing about 8 extra trade per turn.

GL = Great Library ??

I doubt anyone will build the great library. It's only use would be maybe 1 or 2 techs if built now. So it will be fine as a place holder.

If it is built, we can switch to Colossus, Great Wall, or even Sistines in 15 turns.

Panzer... Did you slow down the shield buildup in Imperial City ?

I suggest we poll our wonder decision before the next turn, as we may be building up shields too fast.


I think we can get :
Colussus
Great Wall (We dont have any walls)
Hanging Gardens
Great Library (After education so it will be useless)
Copernicus Observatory
Leonardo's Workshop

If we want to screw Lego,
Sistines Chapel
JS Bachs Cathedral



I think if we slow down shield production we could get a choice of either Copernicus Observatory or Leonardo's Workshop.

The downside, is that we will have a productive city doing nothing while are at war.

Regs

	28-05-2003 05:35									#15
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quote: Panzer... Did you slow down the shield buildup in Imperial City ?

No... it wasn't in the orders thread... I'll try and remember next time.

	28-05-2003 09:36									#16
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1) We can't get Colossus because Imperial City is not on the coast

2) RP will offer Monarchy for our map. It's a thought. However, Hanging Gardens are obsolete with Steam Power. It's still a long way off but oh well, better that than to waste shields.

	28-05-2003 17:50									#17
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If we can do monarchy for map, please go for it!