27-05-2003 10:52									#31
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Ok, I understand the situation now.

I still believe we should go through with the CoC. It would not do for the CoC to be dissolved without undermining our current constitution. I also (still) stand by my reasons for calling the CoC. If MrWhereIts at wins, however, I'll not be disappointed. With all the support MrWhereItsAt is getting from you tonight (and his increased post count recently!), he's got a good chance.

I know I've been a sh!t disturber tonight...hopefully some good will come of it.


Dominae

	27-05-2003 11:05									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I know I've been a sh!t disturber tonight...hopefully some good will come of it.

Here, here!

And yes, we must proceed. If anyone wishes to run, they should name themselves.

	27-05-2003 11:44									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I know I've been a sh!t disturber tonight...hopefully some good will come of it. Dominae

As long as you have convincing arguments which back up your side, and not just doing it for the sake of "sh!t disturbing" then it's all good. Both of you have good reasons IMO.

Honestly, I think MrWIA is a wonderful person, extremely charismatic, and one of the few "people persons" on this team, this makes him a natural leader. However, RL is a drag and sometimes it makes people participate less than they would hope for, for this reason I think Dominae has solid arguments on calling the CoC whether you agree to it or not. I'm sure if MrWIA would tell us that he's too busy with RL most people would understand. He can always run again when less buy and I'm sure he'd win by a landslide. At least he'd always get my vote

	27-05-2003 12:30									#34
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I will just post UBER-quickly here:

At the risk of this becoming a beer-filled warm fuzzies thread (too late?), I just want to say why I haven't posted here as much as the other Consuls (although as far as I'm concerned quite a bit ). They get there ahead of me. When I see a thread, I read everyone's posts THOROUGHLY. If I see something that needs clarification, adaptation to fit as a set of actions to carry out gamewise or I have a different take on matters, I will post. But, as has been said, the Consuls tend to have the same opinions and ideas, and where they have been posted ahead of time, why clutter up the thread with yes-men posts? I hate long threads where posts amount to "I agree wholeheartedly, now let's all go and have a nice day". If that's you - fine, but I try not to do that. Timezones play against me a bit here. It would be QUITE different if the save was received too late to be played in the North hemisphere - but with no team South of the equator, such a thing doesn't happen.

I feel I have done well and am doing even better recently. Others feel the opposite. Whatever happens, this is now in the hands of the whole team. So let's come up with any candidates, have a CoC poll and get this out of the way so we can get on with things - devoting posts and precious time not on side-issues like whether someone has been insulted or not, but on the game. If you agree, I challenge you not to post it, but don't post it. Read this, post if you have a candidate for Consul, but otherwise post on the important matters.

Case closed?

	27-05-2003 12:55									#35
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I just hope a good candidate steps forward. Anyway - I know we have MrWIA as a good candidate, should he be willing to continue as a Consul.

	27-05-2003 13:21									#36
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Oops... I have slept this whole mess over.

I will just briefly chime in and attest that MWIA has been a valuable part of the Consul team. Especially his contribution to the team restructuring has been significant - the fact that it was done largely hidden from the views of public does not diminish its importance. There are things that are better done in private, even in a team game. And there are "invisible chores" that must be taken care of.

I understand Dominae's reasons for calling the CoC, though I believe a simple question regarding MWIA's involvement in the Consular agenda might have avoided a lot of the later fuss. It is not like MWIA would be forum invisible to the "ninotial" extent.

At the same time, I understand MWIA's reasons to feel upset about how things developed. He did contribute a lot and this sudden CoC vote is less than encouraging for him.

I fully support the system of rotating Consulship (90 day terms).

EDIT: I just hope that we are going to see some confirmed candidates for Consuls soon. Nominations are fine and would I personally support anyone from the proposed trio F-P, BigFree, Panzer32 - but we need the nominees to accept their nominations and officially run for the office.

Last edited by vondrack on 27-05-2003 at 13:37

	27-05-2003 15:55									#37
	Nervous Conditional Acceptance Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Uh...er....uh....

To quote a movie I love, The Crow...

"I feel like a little worm on a big f'n hook!"

Uh... okay, I'll admit this was a little unexpected. And who the heck is Paul Wolfowitz? And bloody hell, I haven't made a war proposal since my Diplomacy at Swordpoint days... what's a guy gotta do to look peace-y around here?

I'll set this information on the table as concerns/problems before I start, and then if they are trivial, can be satisified/accepted, sure, I'll give this a shot.

Problem: I will be 1000 percent unavailable from June 10-20. After June 5 and until August I will be a teacher on Summer Break, so I should have time to devote 1-2 hours a day. Not more than that; I have a girlfriend I'm trying to convince to marry me, and I'll be looking for a new job in a new place.

Concerns: I'm not entirely sure what a Consul DOES yet. One of them plays the turn, right? The others consult with the turn-player? I can leave the Apolyton chat open on a monitor, but I wouldn't be watching it above/beyond the mentioned time above... or when I'm playing ladder games I'll have it on monitor 2. Exactly what kind of time requirement is needed here?

Focus: If elected, I would probably try to emphasize foreign/military concerns. Honestly, I'm not a numbers guy, and my head hits the table any time I try to read jungle-clearing threads - though I recognize the EXTREME importance of those threads. I would probably devote my time to making Trip and Togas get along (hehe, there's two votes I just lost!) and whatever else a Consul is supposed to do.

So uh, excuse me while I go barf into a bucket here, and uh, there you go. Would someone get this huge hook out of my ...

Edit: Though I've tried to stay out of that debate largely, I support the rotating Consulship as well, for the reasons displayed in this thread.

	27-05-2003 16:24									#38
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I will be most happy to support Fried-Psitalon for the Consul!

	27-05-2003 16:38									#39
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Well, I'm surprised at the latest happenings. But I understand the reasonings somewhat for MrWIA on both sides of the issue. But, if he says he will be available for Consular duties, then I believe him and support him in retaining his position.

Sorry, I couldn't accept your challenge not to post MrWIA. Will you forgive me?

Also, Dominae, thanks for nominating me. Though I'm not running for this Consularship, I will be running for another.

Last edited by BigFree on 27-05-2003 at 16:44

	27-05-2003 16:46									#40
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If Mr.WIA would like to (and can) continue in his current post, I will gladly withdraw my nervous acceptance... although I suppose with Vondrack stepping down now it'll be that slot getting filled.

	27-05-2003 16:51									#41
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Please don't, Fried-P. This thing is done - a poll must be held. At least let's give the team a choice or two. It is a hollow decision if I am (or anyone is) retained as Consul due simply to the fact that no-one will stand as an alternative.

	27-05-2003 17:38									#42
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Well, Bigfree actually WANTS the job being vacated by Vondrack, so he's set, and I won't challenge him for it- I"m still not sure what I'm doing there. Okay, Mr.WIA, I'll run against you on the following platform:

"Vote for the other guy, cause I suck!"

Yar! Put up yer dukes! I challenge you to a 2 hour small map pangea Civ game for the Consulship!

	27-05-2003 18:34									#43
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I thank you for the nomination, but at the moment I'm too busy to become a consul. Maybe later in the summer, but not before school is over in June.

	29-05-2003 23:51									#44
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Dom, just a reminder for you. If you don't post a poll/election by 2:33 PM PST (less than 3 hours from now), this CoC will be void.

	30-05-2003 00:17									#45
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I'll gladly let this CoC void itself.

MrWhereItsAt's public parcitpation has increased dramatically in the past few days, up to the level I personally expect from a Consul (I'm sure others feel the same way). Therefore, the original reason behind the CoC is gone, and so the CoC can go too.

Also, 1) vondrack's resignation will surely tax the team enough, 2) no one has seriously come forward to run in an election against MrWhereItsAt (although I suspect this is simply because no one wants to cause any friction, which is why the whole CoC method is seriously flawed, at least for our team...I realise that now).

On with the game!


Dominae

	30-05-2003 00:32									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Also, 1) vondrack's resignation will surely tax the team enough, 2) no one has seriously come forward to run in an election against MrWhereItsAt (although I suspect this is simply because no one wants to cause any friction, which is why the whole CoC method is seriously flawed, at least for our team...I realise that now).

CoC methods are seriously flawed no matter what team it is used on. You must never base change on failures but on successes.

	30-05-2003 01:18									#47
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quote: This is not being fair. I just posted a list of ways I think the Consuls should be active, and these can be summed up as follows: activity in our private forum. Chat rooms are nice

Yes... posting is nice, not everyeon can make it to the chats

	30-05-2003 03:53									#48
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quote: CoC methods are seriously flawed no matter what team it is used on. You must never base change on failures but on successes.

Sorry to upset MWIA, but

I wholeheartedly agree!

Seriously though, this is so true for this sort of organization and job we're doing.

It relates to this PhD dissertation my Dad's girlfriend did- checking what kind tasks and under what kind of management benefit from different kinds of feedback. The hypothesis, as well as the final conclusion was that tasks in which the focus is on achievement- that involve creative thinking and based more on self made choices (alot of what our Consuls and ministers do) are improved mainly by giving positive feedback (e.g. compliments, bonuses, and so forth) while negative feedback usually hurts overall performance. Tasks that involve error finding and correction, are more likely to be improved after recieving negative feedback (e.g. "you'e made a mistake there!", bonus cuts).

I should give her the credit, though: Van-dijk (2003) (and she's not dutch )

I also agree that the a system of punishment is not the proper way to keep our Consuls in order- and perhaps a change in the CoC is in order, to change the criterions for impeachment.

	30-05-2003 04:20									#49
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OK, well if spending the same amount of time here but more or less just repeating what others have said is what you guys want, that's no problem.

Honestly, though, I always read everything here, I just didn't post unless I saw we were missing something. If lots of posts (even rather extraneous ones, in my view) = contributing Consul, then that's fine by me. As long as I can get online then, I will post around.

I thought I would need to do a helluva lot more to be accepted, but, if that's all (apart from chatting and playing turns, which I would like to do when I get home in a two weeks), then sweet as.

	30-05-2003 04:47									#50
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Honestly, though, I always read everything here, I just didn't post unless I saw we were missing something. If lots of posts (even rather extraneous ones, in my view) = contributing Consul, then that's fine by me. As long as I can get online then, I will post around.

I'm surprised you still do not "get it": it's not the number of posts, but what you contribute. If you do not feel you can contribute anything other than "behind the scenes" stuff (which I still do not understand: everything important can and should be dealt with in our forums), then you're not acting as Consul, but as any other Citizen, since most of us around here "keep up-to-date" just fine without being Consul.

As I stated somewhere else (I forget where), my vision of a Consul is someone who leads the team, and leadership is a public activity. Why did nye and vondrack participate in all the discussions while you did whatever you did in the background? Do they always have better ideas that you? If so, what's your role?

I would apologize for being so harsh, but I already did so privately in PM, and you kept on pushing the issue. Recently you've been participating more, people feel like they have three Consuls and all is well. But please do not say "I've been perfect all along, this CoC was crap", because the fact of the matter is many Citizens (myself included, of course) thought this CoC made sense. And now that you're participating more, it does not make sense anymore.

Sigh.

I do apologize for being so harsh. This is meant to be fun, and I'm sucking all the fun out of this game. I've conceded your side of the story; maybe you could understand mine?


Dominae

	30-05-2003 07:27									#51
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I'm pretty much over any annoyance I had.

I suppose I just have to accept that what I am doing now is enough of a help to be seen as contributing to the point that is expected of me. I thought that the CoC (I don't think it's crap BTW!) would mean I had to do a lot more - I'm surprised at the fact it seems to need a far smaller amount of extra effort than I was putting in.

I guess there is just a tiny leap between keeping up with threads and strategies and the amount of thought I was putting in beforehand and what I am doing now.

* MrWhereItsAt shrugs

Bottom line: If it's satisfactory, I'll keep it up, no matter what I think.

	30-05-2003 07:43									#52
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Just wondering- is there any possibility that demogame chatlogs/summaries can be posted on the forums- you know just a cut and paste from the chatlogs- for people who miss the chats?

Although I think the info is sufficient- given in the turn reports by Vondrack and notyoueither

	30-05-2003 08:14									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I thought that the CoC (I don't think it's crap BTW!) would mean I had to do a lot more - I'm surprised at the fact it seems to need a far smaller amount of extra effort than I was putting in.

Apparently that small extra effort is the difference between a thumbs-up and a CoC proposal!

I look forward to your Consul-ship in the future.


DarkCloud: the chats are very informal. Things "get done" amidst a sea of unrelated chatter. It's fun while you're there, but reading through it afterwards should be hell. I think the best we can do is to try and record a log when everyone at the chat is more or less on-topic.


Dominae

	30-05-2003 10:08									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Just wondering- is there any possibility that demogame chatlogs/summaries can be posted on the forums- you know just a cut and paste from the chatlogs- for people who miss the chats? Although I think the info is sufficient- given in the turn reports by Vondrack and notyoueither

As I'm usually in channel; either on, idle or away(but logging), I can submit logs. Someone elde had requested this once also, I forget who now though...

Maybe we can set up a thread where I can link the logs in test format. You'd have to download them to read them. Otherwise I'd have to edit each and everyone of them to get the to show properly in the forums. If there's enough interest, I will do this. I sugget that if you want these logs, start a poll asking if other's would be interested in having access to them as well. If the poll indicates a desire for them I will put forth the effort to make what I have available.

	30-05-2003 10:16									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Just wondering- is there any possibility that demogame chatlogs/summaries can be posted on the forums- you know just a cut and paste from the chatlogs- for people who miss the chats?

We're talking about MEGABYTES of logs

Of which only about 1/3 is really truly ISDG related

	30-05-2003 11:57									#56
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1/3? I was thinking more like 1/10, from the times I've been in the ISDG chat room. Some of what gets discussed there....whew.... I honestly don't think I WANT to see the other 9/10 of what gets said in that chat.

	30-05-2003 13:48									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon 1/3? I was thinking more like 1/10, from the times I've been in the ISDG chat room. Some of what gets discussed there....whew.... I honestly don't think I WANT to see the other 9/10 of what gets said in that chat.

Yeah, 1/10 seems more reasonable...

* Master Zen wants to keep the logs secret so F-P doesn't see what we've said about him!

j/k

	30-05-2003 13:48									#58
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Glorious...a CoC proposal turns into chat talk....

I have the amazing desire to close this thread - it would be sooooo satisfying.

	30-05-2003 14:35									#59
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Close it! :doitnow:

	30-05-2003 18:53									#60
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I can only do that if the thread starter requests it closed.

Standard practice.