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Dominae
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I am officially proposing a Change of Command for our Consul, MrWhereItsAt.
Since this is our first CoC (apart from Ninot's departure, which was a farce), here is a refresher of section G.3 of our constitution:
quote:
The Senate has the power to take a proposal for Change of Command (CoC).
a. Any Senator may proclaim a Change of Command proposal on an elected official.
b. The Senator must state the elected official he is intending to remove from office in the first post - this is called the 'initial proposal'.
c. During 48 hours after the initial proposal, any number of candidates may apply for the job. The Senator himself may or may not apply.
d. After the first 48 hours, but within 72 hours, the Senator must organize a vote - this is called the 'replacement proposal'. If this vote is not organized within this time, the CoC is nulled.
e. The replacement proposal vote must be open for 72 hours.
f. The replacement proposal vote must include all candidates, plus the person who was the subject of the initial proposal, unless this person indicates otherwise.
g. The CoC vote shall be done with a preferential ballot. The person with the highest outcome wins the election.
h. An elected official may only propose a Change of Command vote on himself, and not on another one.
i. Any elected official may not be the subject of a CoC for five turns after his election.
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Although I am apparently not required to state a reason for my proposal, I'll do so anyway. First, a brief summary, then some in-depth thoughts:
MrWhereItsAt has not been pulling his weight as Consul.
1. The necessary disclaimer section. I have nothing against MrWhereItsAt personally. The few times that I communicated with him, he was pleasant and very supportive of my MoI efforts. Also, in the few times he has posted here, he has remained optimistic and productive. Thus, this CoC proposal is not at all attack on MrWhereItsAt.
2. Nor is this proposal a grab for power by myself. I have no desire to become Consul at this time.
3. In light of the current reforms in our team, including the increased participation of the Consuls as leaders (instead of turn-players), I feel the MrWhereItsAt's performance is out-of-place. If we were still in the "old system", I probably would not say anything about this. But since the goal of all this change is to create a more effective team, I think it is unwise not neglect the most important group in the team, namely the Consultate.
4. MrWhereItsAt has posted infrequently ever since Day 1 of his position as Consul. He appears to keep up-to-date on what is happening. When he does catch up, he posts a few thoughts, but these rarely go beyond the superficial, which is to be expected from someone who does not keep up as much as the "regulars" around here. After these "appearances", he disappears for many days, leaving us with what is essentially a 2-Consul system. I doubt either vondrack or nye actually consult MrWhereItsAt with any regularity anymore. Finally, he did not take a major part in the recent reforms, which he should have been spear-heading, along with nye and vondrack (although this may be because he has particularly busy of late).
5. If anyone needs to have their presence felt, it is the Consul. IMO it will not do for a Consul to absent for two week periods, only to catch up and leave for another two weeks. I understand RL jumps in, which is why I resigned as MoI. I suggest that any official who envisions RL conflicts in the near-future respectfully step down, at least until he or she gets more time to invest in this game. The former Minister of Intelligence is another case in point.
6. Many of you may think this is a bad idea, due to MrWhereItsAt's popularity in the SPDG. Let me say this: this is another game entirely. As someone who is not a member of the SPDG, and therefore has had little contact with MrWhereItsAt before, I must point out to all of you that MrWhereItsAt has no fulfilled his duties here, regardless of his commitment somewhere else.
That's about it, I think you all get my point.
This thread can be used for nominations. Notice that it is not necessary to say "I disagree with Dom, MrWhereItsAt is a great Consul!" etc., because his name will appear on the ballot in a week's time (unless, of course, he does not wish to remain a Consul). Of course, you're free to say whatever you want...it's your Democracy Game! I personally have no nominations at this time.
To conclude, MrWhereItsAt: sorry to spring this on you so suddenly, you seem like you could be a great Consul! But currently we need dedicated Consuls. If you plan on increasing your commitment, I'll gladly vote for you in the upcoming election.
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Damn, damn, damn...
MrWIA offered to step down because he is going to be busy for the next month or so and unable to check in frequently or play turns. I told him not to worry, we would be OK.
Unfortunately, I was thinking of him and not the team. I am very sorry to him for this, as well as to the entire team. Please do not blame MrWIA, who offered to do the 'right thing'.
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Sigh.
This is the second time this happens. With Ninot, "the people" were informed of his decision many days after he had communicated with vondrack and nye, effectively leaving us with a two-Consul team. It's as though what happens within the Consultate is not open to public.
Now, we're informed that MrWhereItsAt was actually planning on leaving for a while, and the Consultate decides that everything will be ok without him, he can do whatever he pleases. Meanwhile, the people are left in the dark.
I like our Consuls. But I'm also beginning to like Master Zen's idea of a rotation. This way, no leader will ever become complacent.
Dominae
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:28
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Bugger.
Well I had feared for some time that something like this was coming, but I had mostly put those fears aside by now.
Last month in addition to the ISDG, I became President of both the C3DG and the C2DG single player games. I found this was a lot in addition to my PhD, meaning that I was away from here for some time. Once my RL workload settled down, I resolved that I was to take a break from all Demo games, with the one exception of the ISDG, which was a place that I felt my Poly loyalty and recently learned Civ3 knowhow could be put to good use. My term is up in both of these games, and I was looking forward to posting a lot more in this forum. Things were complicated slightly more by the sudden decision to send me to Oz for three weeks, which means I cannot play the game. But such a thing didn't worry me - I never played anyway, as the timeframe for the game meant that the save would arrive at times unsuitable for me anyway, and the other Consuls would always have played by the time I was back on again. Furthermore, I could now post unrestricted by the distractions of home.
Imagine my disappointment when I saw this CoC up.
It is true that I have not had the high profile of the other Consuls, nor do I post as much as they do. However, in the last 2-3 weeks, this has not been due to my absence - I have been in the chatroom all day my time every weekday, oft times discussing with the other Consuls, MasterZen, WhiteBandit and others. I post as well, where I feel I can contribute or clarify. More often than not, again due to the fact both vondrack and nye are proactive in their natures, I will find that any points I could have made have already been covered, long before my corner of the world was even awake. And I have had rather a lot more consultation with both nye and vondrack on the recent changes to our game structure than has been seen.
In summary, I can say that I am in no way a Consul of the same calibre of nye and vondrack, but this has not been for want of trying. I have done all I can recently that had not already been done, in the hope I could redeem myself to the team. If I have failed, then so be it. But ask yourselves this: with vondrack doing reports, with turns arriving and being played during North American/European times and with posting opportunities going to Nth Amers/Euros first- what more could I have done? What more do you want a Consul to do? Yes, I could have played the turns on one or two occasions before now, but I hardly imagine it would be without protest that they could have been played without the presence of several other members, at least.
The whole reason I thought I could be a Consul was not to replace or even approach vondrack and nye, but to do what they had not the time for (I have once had to try a replacement for vondrack's report and have played along with the other Consuls occasionally), to represent another timezone and to be a third voice in things that must be decided upon. I have had my mark on all the recent changes - indeed I wrote some of them! I may have been a shadow Consul, but I believe I have done more than I am credited with. If it is not enough, and I cannot be given duties that are more acceptable to the team, then I am saddened.
Whatever the outcome of all of this, I myself believe I have done all I could in the last few weeks for the team, and I am proud. I dare anyone else to do better.
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:28
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My opinions:
BigFree: definitely a wise choice, has been very active in builder issues as well as diplomatic ones. He also pretty much gets along with everyone (except panag), I think he would make an excellent Consul.
Panzer32: as a Glorious Warmonger, I can faithfully assure you that Panzer32 is a very dedicated player and a damn heckuva good builder (and warmonger too  ) . I don't know what GoW would be without him!
Fried-Psitalon: yes, he rants, yes, he is more hawkish than Paul Wolfowitz, yes he can be a little cocky at times, but that does not mean he doesn't have the skill to be a great Consul either. Another excellent choice IMO.
Damn, those are hard choices, I'll be hard pressed to choose when the time comes...
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Dominae
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MrWhereItsAt, thanks for your comments. I nonetheless stand by my CoC proposal. Although you may know that you were doing things "behind the scenes", you must admit that to the casual (and not-so-casual, like me) onlooker, you've been more absent than not since your arrival. "What more could I have done" you ask? Well, posting somewhat regularly on our boards would be a good place to start.
I'm actually surprised that you have such hard feelings on this matter. I feel my CoC proposal is completely justified, while you think you've performing adequately. Something is wrong here. I guess everyone was right in saying that you cannot call for a CoC without hard feelings.
Concerning your RL and other Demogame commitments: I believe it is a Consul's job to report on these and make it clear to the team as a whole that your participation will be reduced for a period of time. I do not believe I'm alone in hearing the news that you were "busy" lately, but now are ready to take on the responsibility. If you're "busy", step aside and let other members fill in while you're away.
Anyway, I'm actually glad you do not want to give up the position. If (and when) people vote for you and you get to remain Consul, I'm sure you'll be enthused to do a fantastic job.
Dominae
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:28
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I will try to stop posting here after this post (it is not a place for debate between me and the CoC proposer), but I wish to say one or two things more before leaving this up to the team to decide.
I do have strong feelings about this, and it has certainly changed my mood considerably. I can't say I'm not a little angry, but I at least understand the position of Dom and others enough to realise the reason for this.
I have often felt I have done something "impeachworthy" in DGs I have been involved in, and in those cases I would have been upset, but ready to accept any decision. Here I feel I have done nothing wrong, and I am proud of my participation in the game. I believe I can say I have done more than any who is not a Minister or Consul in these last weeks, and a considerable amount more at times than even some of them. I will also be deeply surprised if I could have done more, and surprised further if someone else can do considerably more, even if they are a North Hemispherite. I have just looked at the AltSp thread and I have posted there many times. I have PMs to and from the Consuls and Ministers about various issues, and I have spent many hours ensuring I have caught up on what happens in this forum when I am asleep, as well as during my day.
I believe it is also a Consul's job to ensure they have a level head about things and to be able to maintain a good relatioship with the other teammembers and Ministers. I am VERY confident I have done these things, and I believe that the comments of those who support the CoC idea support my statement above too.
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Dominae
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Like I said in another thread, a (minor) part of my reasoning behind this CoC is to break the ice: if CoCs are how we're to replace Consuls, then we had better get used to them.
I'm not sure why there has to be any bad feelings: the Consul is always placed on the upcoming ballot, and if everyone thinks he or she is doing a good job, there simply will not be any change of command! And if the majority thinks that he or she should be replaced, then that's good too.
There's no reason to be angry in a democracy.
Dominae
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Like I said in another thread, a (minor) part of my reasoning behind this CoC is to break the ice: if CoCs are how we're to replace Consuls, then we had better get used to them.
I'm not sure why there has to be any bad feelings: the Consul is always placed on the upcoming ballot, and if everyone thinks he or she is doing a good job, there simply will not be any change of command! And if the majority thinks that he or she should be replaced, then that's good too.
There's no reason to be angry in a democracy.
Dominae |
In theory yes, but reality is much different Dom. When someone feels he is doing a good job and suddenly gets a CoC on him, do you honestly expect him to have no hard feelings about it? Of course he will, it's human nature. You asked for a CoC from your MoI job because YOU knew you wouldn't be fit for the job for time reasons, but would you have felt the same if someone pulled a CoC on you right in the middle of your mandate for reasons which you would think to be wrong?
That is why I am against CoCs being the only way to replace Consuls, it will only foment grudges and is not inducive to that thing called Apolyton Spirit. I don't see why we have to live with it, I say we change it.
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Dominae
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Master Zen, I see your point, but only agree to an extent.
Personally, the only time I would feel "shafted" if a CoC were called against me is if one member of the team had a vendetta against me, and was calling a CoC just to anger me. I think I've made it clear that this is not the case with my CoC for MrWhereItsAt.
If everyone is afraid to call CoCs because of bad feelings, we've got a problem. I was hoping to change this somewhat.
If you're right, and there will always be bad feelings with a CoC, then a rotation another system seems approriate. Whatever system we use, however, I want it to include a way of keeping people who are doing a good job in their position indefinitely, if the people so desire. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". All the current proposals (rotation, etc.) have required that the Consuls step down, even if they're the best available for the job. That seems weird to me.
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
As always, MrWIA carries himself extremely well. I can understand him not being happy to see this when he signs in again after a 2 day absense, but his words are not animated as those of many others might be.
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Are you implying that I'm arguing in bad taste here? I understand your loyaly to MrWhereItsAt, but a little objectivity would also be nice.
quote:
'There's no reason to be angry in a democracy.'
That is an interesting thought. Where do you come by that? People in some utopia do not ever find themselves in conflict? Curious.
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Heh-heh, you took my comment out of context. A one-sentence summary of what I meant to say would be: "An elected official should not be angry if the people do not vote for him or her".
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Did you ask where MrWIA was? Did you ask what he has done? Did you seek information, or just assume that because he was comfortable in the back ground, allowing myself and vondrack the spot light that he did nothing? I can assure you, he has done much. He also appears to be promising more.
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First, in this game I do not feel I need to ask around to figure out how the Consuls are benefitting the team. Perhaps my definition of "Consul" is different from yours. Ideally, I would like Consuls to lead debates, to publicly weigh in on the big issues, and to give their most informed reasoning. Someone who "thinks about things" in the background and makes decisions does not seem to me to be in the spirit of this game. If there is anything this game should be, it is public (which is why I'm posting all this publicly, instead of PMing the heck out of you guys). Is my vision of Consultatorship wrong?
quote:
I agree though, that there is no reason for this debate to be carried forward in anger. I do not feel any.
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Unfortunately, I am. Having left the post of MoI, I'm beginning to feel what it is like to be "out of the loop". I still have some time to dedicate to this game (just felt like I should say that...). I started a CoC because of something I have been observing for a long time. The reaction I get is: "you've hurt the feelings of someone who has put a lot of effort into this game". Well, no. As a Citizen, I believe it is my right to state my opinion on our current leadership. The Consuls' reaction? "You're uninformed; you're wrong". No wonder Citizens feel like they're not being heard!
Dominae
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BRC
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If I can get a word in, as someone closer to the outside looking in...
I feel that Dom was justified in his call for a CoC, especially based on the information that we have. I also was under the impression that MWIA wasn't pulling his weight (no offense). I check in a few times a day, and it just seemed to me that we were running a 2 consul system the past few weeks. While that may or may not be true, that is how it appeared.
Now, if MWIA has the time and is willing to give the effort, I support him continuing. Granted, I would like to see more "evidence" of his participation as a consul, but if NYE and Vondrack feel that he is doing his duty as well as a 3rd consul can, then so be it.
As for the system, I think an election every 30 days for at least one of the consulships should be considered (or something like that). MZ is right, there is no good way to propose a CoC.
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Dominae
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* Dominae goes to get a beer and tries to remember this is supposed to be fun, damnit.
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Dominae
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I agree with you on the need for a regular electoral process. I just have to comment on this, however:
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Originally posted by notyoueither
How can all 3 of us occupy your attentions? Should I be in one ring balancing a ball, vondrack in another rolling on a drum, and MrWIA in the third falling out of a toy taxi?
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This is not being fair. I just posted a list of ways I think the Consuls should be active, and these can be summed up as follows: activity in our private forum. Chat rooms are nice, PMs are sometimes a godsend, but mostly we want things to be posted in our forum. If a Consul is largely absent from this forum, I see a problem (maybe I'm not justified, but do I have to go around asking people what the Consuls are doing?!).
I mean, just look at Gathering Storm (nye): there is less of a democracy on that team than there is here, but at least there everything is discussed publicly! You know who is doing the work and who is not! This may sound silly to you, but I'm uncomfortable with a "behind the scenes" Consul (with apologies to MrWhereItsAt).
Dominae
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27-05-2003 02:33
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