27-05-2003 22:22									#1
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Does anyone know a list of books of the stories of greek mythology? As many stories as poosible aswell, eg, the Argonauticus, Heracles, PErseus, etc etc.




Also, does anyone know a good way of learning homeric Greek??

	27-05-2003 22:49									#2
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Edith Hamilton's "Mythology" is the standard-setter, despite it being pretty old. It gives a really good introduction to the myths, is written on a very readable level. It is not, however, comprehensive.

Robert Graves' "The Greek Myths" would probably suit you, as it gives far more detailed stories. It's written on a little higher level, too.

As for learning Homeric Greek...why?!

	27-05-2003 23:09									#3
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quote: As for learning Homeric Greek...why?!

So i can read Homer and Hesiod in the original language they rote in.

Also, it'd be nice to read plate etc in ancient greek to.

	27-05-2003 23:19									#4
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Eh, seems like a waste of time to me, since you can get superb translations of their works. Richmond Lattimore's Iliad is all you'll need!

	27-05-2003 23:26									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Eh, seems like a waste of time to me, since you can get superb translations of their works. Richmond Lattimore's Iliad is all you'll need!

This is barbarism. Reading Ancient works in the original brings to light the limits of even the finest translators.

If you want to learn classical Greek, prepare yourself for a really hard slog.

	27-05-2003 23:31									#6
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One of the reasons for learning ancient Greek is that it is impossible(!) to translate it to any modern western language as far as I know - Not the rhythm/meter anyway. Which is a major part of ancient Greek literature. It is impossible because of the different way in which the syllables and stresses work...

	27-05-2003 23:33									#7
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well, boris, everyone has answred you for me


Yep, it sure will be a hard slog, thats why i am asking if anyone can help

	27-05-2003 23:50									#8
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that's right firelad.... on top of that, it takes a LOT of effort to actually read ancient Greek fluently...

Only if you learn it intensively for a long time you'll be able to understand it thoroughly and and notice the "finesses"

i've had some experience, and though i was a lot younger, it was still pretty difficult..

	27-05-2003 23:56									#9
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I suspect that it would be worth it for somebody who really loves classical Greek literature. Perhaps I'll do it sometime.. Too busy right now.

EDIT: For some reason I've lately acquired the tendency to spell "Too" with a single "o".

	28-05-2003 00:04									#10
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well, i am intending on learning alot of languages simply for reading literature anyway
Classical greek (duh!), Russian (war and peace) and so on...

	28-05-2003 00:14									#11
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man well, boris, everyone has answred you for me Yep, it sure will be a hard slog, thats why i am asking if anyone can help

Your best bet would be to get "From Alpha to Omega" by Anne H Groton. That is a course in basic Attic Greek that will allow you to read things like Plato, Xenophon and the New Testament (which is written in Koine, which isn't much different).

Then, once you have mastered that there are specialist books on Homeric Greek since it is written in a different dialect. I don't read Homer in Greek myself (more a case of not having the time to learn the dialect) but reputedly it isn't that hard since there are many standard repeated forms and lines - e.g. "Then Agamemnon, sacker of cities....".

I only know a few people who can read Classical Greek with any sort of fluency, and they're published scholars who've been doing it for more than 30 years. I can read prose fairly well, but I still spend a lot of time in the lexicon.

Here's an example of the limitations of translation. This is by my namesake:

 monou gar autou kai theos sterisketai,
ageneta poien hass' an ei pepragmena

It's usually translated as "God is deprived of only this - to undo what has been done"

Literally (a rough translation) it translates as "For of this alone even God is deprived - to make anything whatsoever not to have happened, if it has been done."

The word order in Greek is more flexible because of the case system and the Greek sentence is more semantically complex.

	28-05-2003 00:16									#12
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man well, i am intending on learning alot of languages simply for reading literature anyway Classical greek (duh!), Russian (war and peace) and so on...

It's certainly worth the effort to be able to read Greek. It's just hard and time consuming. I think this is partly because it's now a solely academic language. I doubt whether any Ancient Greek pored over the grammatical minutiae of a sentence in Plato the way people like me do.

	28-05-2003 00:18									#13
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yeah, i know its hard, i tried to translate some stuff i had with an oxford classical greek dictionary, the book had both english and greek, it said, 'So, Alexander'

i Had, 'Lets, fire brimstone'

this is why i need a good 'teach me' book.

	28-05-2003 00:20									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's certainly worth the effort to be able to read Greek. It's just hard and time consuming. I think this is partly because it's now a solely academic language. I doubt whether any Ancient Greek pored over the grammatical minutiae of a sentence in Plato the way people like me do.

luckily, my dad is cypriot, so if i get stuck with vocalizing it, or pronounciation in general, he could probably help me. Though, the languages are now so different he couldn't help me out generally

	28-05-2003 00:23									#15
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I can't imagine learning ancient greek without a tutor.
Learning by the book will never be what a teacher can teach you ..

	28-05-2003 00:23									#16
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quote: This is barbarism. Reading Ancient works in the original brings to light the limits of even the finest translators.

I realize that you may just be making a point, but the fact that your comment smacks of elitism (among 90% of the others you post) becomes highly irritating.

I hope you don't regard this as a personal attack...our politics are pretty much on-line with one another, but I notice this in a lot of your posts

	28-05-2003 00:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man this is why i need a good 'teach me' book.

Start with the Groton. It's the standard book they use here at U of T - I learned the basics from it - get a teacher edition so you get the solutions to the problems as well. It will give you all the basic grammar - the rest is just practice and more practice.

	28-05-2003 01:47									#18
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If you don't mind paying....

www3.open.ac.uk/courses/bin/p12.dll?C02A296_humanities

	28-05-2003 02:01									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon This is barbarism. Reading Ancient works in the original brings to light the limits of even the finest translators.

quote: Originally posted by Agathon I don't read Homer in Greek myself (more a case of not having the time to learn the dialect) but reputedly it isn't that hard since there are many standard repeated forms and lines - e.g. "Then Agamemnon, sacker of cities...."

Hypocrisy, thy name is...

Look, Andy-Man, no doubt there are nuances of language in any work that aren't translatable to other languages. The question is will your investment in time of learning Homeric Greek be worth it? Will the amount of effort made to read the works in the original languages pay off in some sort of new epiphany of the nature of these works that isn't available from even the best translations?

I'd say, unlikely. If you're that interested in the Greek language to do it, by all means go ahead... I just think your time could be better spent!

	28-05-2003 02:09									#20
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I agree with Boris, I looked at doing a course last year, IMHO to make it worth my while I'd have had to learn it to a standard that made the translations done by professional scholars redundant to me.

In otherwords it may be an interesting intellectual exercise but theres more important things out there I don't know and would like to learn....

	28-05-2003 03:20									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov ...new epiphany of the nature of these works that isn't available from even the best translations?

Yes, the fact that it is originally a work of poetry and song... The most that translators can do is make it a sort of poetry. Certainly not the singing work it is supposed to be. Just a question of how much you want to get it. I personally (while having read translations only, unfortunately, no matter how excellent) see little point, if all the articles I read about it are correct, to read translations of the Illiad and Oddysey, simply because as fiction they are less than exceptional. It is the effect of the language that (supposedly) makes them superb.

Of course, take all I say with a grain of salt, as I do not speak from personal knowledge

	28-05-2003 03:56									#22
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Yes, Homer wrote in a certain form, dactyllic hexameters (I don't know if this is the correct English term). The verses follow a certain rhythm.
This is why poetry is so much more of a pain to translate than prose; the order of words is sometimes a bit illogical (because the words have to fit the rhythm).

I don't think I have my old school notes with exact details anymore unfortunately. (I had three years of Greek, and six years of Latin.)

Last edited by Zopperoni on 28-05-2003 at 04:03

	28-05-2003 09:22									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Hypocrisy, thy name is...

There's a difference between, I don't read Homer in the original and I can't read Homer in the original. I can read it up to a point, and have done so; but I just don't have the time to get my epic up to a good standard.

And despite what you say, my point still holds. You miss a lot in translations from Ancient Greek. I should know - I personally translated the entirety of Plato's Sophist last year. If he really wants to get to grips with Homer, he should read it in the Greek.

quote: Look, Andy-Man, no doubt there are nuances of language in any work that aren't translatable to other languages.

But Greek is afflicted by this to an unusual degree. For example, it is very difficult to convey the emphasis intended in a Greek sentence into an English sentence because English does not support noun cases and has a comparatively inflexible attitude to word order. Not to mention other things like puns and allusions.

quote: The question is will your investment in time of learning Homeric Greek be worth it? Will the amount of effort made to read the works in the original languages pay off in some sort of new epiphany of the nature of these works that isn't available from even the best translations?

The answer is yes. If you aren't reading it in Greek you aren't reading Homer and you are at the mercy of the translator. Similarly with Plato, et al. In many cases in Greek Literature the texts are ambiguous and it just isn't possible to convey the ambiguity in English without butchering the text.

quote: I'd say, unlikely. If you're that interested in the Greek language to do it, by all means go ahead... I just think your time could be better spent!

If you want a means of improving your grasp of the structure and capacities of language, Greek is an excellent choice, even without the bonus of the literature.

	28-05-2003 09:28									#24
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Learning Homeric Greek seems awfully pointless to me, unless you're extraordinarily good at learning languages. Why not something more useful?

	28-05-2003 09:31									#25
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quote: Originally posted by orange I realize that you may just be making a point, but the fact that your comment smacks of elitism (among 90% of the others you post) becomes highly irritating.

Oh poo! I study Ancient Greek and I care about the preservation of the language a great deal. I'd like to see more people study it - I can't see what's elitist about wanting to help anyone who wants to learn Greek - in fact that seems to be just the opposite.

We could always start an Apolyton Greek reading group since a stack of people here seem to have learned Greek.

quote: I hope you don't regard this as a personal attack...our politics are pretty much on-line with one another, but I notice this in a lot of your posts.

Everyone's an elitist about some things - I make no apologies for caring about Greek.

	28-05-2003 09:32									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Learning Homeric Greek seems awfully pointless to me, unless you're extraordinarily good at learning languages. Why not something more useful?

I guess you just have to experience the pleasure of Greek to see its use. I count learning Greek as one of the best things I ever did.

	28-05-2003 09:34									#27
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Modern Greek might be somewhat useful sure, but Homeric Greek?

	28-05-2003 21:50									#28
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well, homer isn't the only reason, there is ofcourse other authors, aswell as the fact to say 'i can...'.


Its something of more a hobby or something, like gardening, except this could take me many more years then ever planting trees and watching them grow, though (to be boring ) learning this langaine will be like gardening, i plant the seed of language and.........



thanks for all the help so far everyone, a ghreek reading thing would be cool if it helped non-speakers learn..

	28-05-2003 21:57									#29
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NO!

Start learning Finnish, instead!

Seriously, there are more useful languages, instead of dead ones, IMO.

	28-05-2003 21:59									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu NO! Start learning Finnish, instead! Seriously, there are more useful languages, instead of dead ones, IMO.

but as i said, i am not doing it because it is usefull as such (though it is very usefull to someone who reads greek philosophers )