28-05-2003 01:19									#1
	Ocean ROP Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I don't know if this has been discussed before but as I was trying to explore the world in my current game, I thought it might be useful to have two types of right of passage agreements- one for land and one for sea. Maybe the next expansion could have this. Any thoughts?

	28-05-2003 01:26									#2
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great idea..

easy to implement....

if the new editor is REALLY powerful in conquests we might even do it ourselves

cheers

	28-05-2003 01:43									#3
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Good idea.

	28-05-2003 01:54									#4
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Good idea. Although I've found the AI usually acts as if it has one with you anyway, at least before Navigation/Magnetism.

	28-05-2003 16:28									#5
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I thought sea and land you control were already considered the same way for ROP: when there is no ROP you are not authorized to go through the sea controlled by the AI.
Or do you mean you want to control land and sea ROP separately? If so, yes, it is a good idea.

	28-05-2003 19:08									#6
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You could even have land,sea and air

	28-05-2003 21:39									#7
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger You could even have land,sea and air

Air ROP. Good idea too

	28-05-2003 22:05									#8
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Air ROP... Why??????

Bomber, Fighter dont really fly over things... you just pick a zone to bombard and your bomber drop the bombs where you click...
Your bomber ic Civ3 dont fly like in Civ2... it got to be in a city or a AirPort... And when you "rebase" in a new city, your aircraft dont care about any distance or what is between the "source city" and the "destination city"...

But if the Air ROP can make you give the right to make AirPort in another Civilization, this can be a good thing...

I can't wait to see if Conquest got new option in the editor?
Anyone know if there a chat soon fixed with firaxis?

thanks and see ya

Last edited by cronos_qc on 28-05-2003 at 22:57

	28-05-2003 22:24									#9
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For helicopters maybe

	29-05-2003 04:26									#10
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rop isnt only mad in see

itis mad in land two

hance rops

	29-05-2003 05:11									#11
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Sea ROPs would be of very limited use, namely pre-navigation sea exploration. While it would be enjoyable in the early game, it would become completely useless in the later game (where boats can fare outside of the Civ's territory).

Personally, to avoid the "trireme in foreign borders" syndrome, I've edited my game for Triremes to have four moves, and other ships to have many more.

	29-05-2003 07:19									#12
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I just ignore the warnings the AI gives me for ship encroachments as it very rarely causes war (and they rarely encroach from sea).

	29-05-2003 23:01									#13
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quote: rop isnt only mad in see itis mad in land two hance rops

Ottok got a DL!

	30-05-2003 07:45									#14
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I don't see any added utility to having a land RoP and a sea RoP. The current situation mirrors the real world pretty well IMHO. Ancient civs may claim sea territory but have little ability to enforce it. The AI mirrors this when it tells you to leave, you ignore it, and nothing happens. As a Civ matures, I can see things like trading a RoP at navigational checkpoints for some type of consideration, but beyond that I believe that a general RoP should suffice.

	30-05-2003 12:44									#15
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 I can see things like trading a RoP at navigational checkpoints for some type of consideration

I think it is the main idea behind the sea ROP concept.

	30-05-2003 14:01									#16
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Sea ROP, excelent idea. Air ROP also, but in CIV4 (if there is any...). I always wished there was an air transport unit which could move your tanks or at least artilery around.

	30-05-2003 14:17									#17
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On land, ROP agreements serve two purposes. (1) They allow civs to benefit from each other's roads and railroads. (2) They mean a civ won't demand that you leave or declare war if you end a turn in their borders.

Neither of these is an issue on the water. Ships move just as quickly within someone else's borders without a ROP as they do with one, and while civs will ask you to leave if your ships end up in their territory, the "remove your forces or declare war" option does not exist with regard to ships. As best I can figure it, AIs are perfectly willing to ignore territorial sovereignty where water tiles are concerned, and they don't make a big fuss if humans behave similarly.

Nathan

	30-05-2003 20:10									#18
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay "... Ships move just as quickly within someone else's borders without a ROP as they do with one, and while civs will ask you to leave if your ships end up in their territory, the "remove your forces or declare war" option does not exist with regard to ships. As best I can figure it, AIs are perfectly willing to ignore territorial sovereignty where water tiles are concerned, and they don't make a big fuss if humans behave similarly." Nathan

I find this to be true. The AI will ask you to leave, but if you say "sure" and continue moving through their waters, you may not hear from them again, or not for quite some time. And it doesn't really seem to harm attitude relations. IIRC, the AI does seem a bit touchier when you have multiple ships or ships loaded with units.

	31-05-2003 02:18									#19
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay On land, ROP agreements serve two purposes. (1) They allow civs to benefit from each other's roads and railroads. (2) They mean a civ won't demand that you leave or declare war if you end a turn in their borders. Neither of these is an issue on the water. Ships move just as quickly within someone else's borders without a ROP as they do with one, and while civs will ask you to leave if your ships end up in their territory, the "remove your forces or declare war" option does not exist with regard to ships. As best I can figure it, AIs are perfectly willing to ignore territorial sovereignty where water tiles are concerned, and they don't make a big fuss if humans behave similarly. Nathan

I find this true also. I don't believe that a seperate general RoP for sea tiles would add much. Perhaps we should call it a Right of transit recognized at navigational chockpoints only and give it a 5 turm limit. This would preserve territorial security in some sensitive coastal areas while accomidating a culture that you do not want to extend a general RoP to.