28-05-2003 09:46									#1
	Let's Screw Lego Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

time for another Master Zen mini-evil plan...

According to our tech deal with Lego we would have agreed to a no-build clause for Sistine Chapel and JS Bach's Cathedral. They agreed to a no-build clause for Leo's

But that was before Guido and Nunzio had a little chat with ZargonX a few minutes ago...

I told Zargon that a 2 for 1 deal was unacceptable for us, and that if they wanted 2 no-build clauses we demand the same from them. He agreed. I fed him more stuff about how GoW must be their most trustworthy partner... bla bla bla.

So, I propose to screw Lego the following way:

No-build clause for Copernicus Observatory
Even if we don't get to build it, it will be out of their hands, thus stunting a potential science leader in the future.

Think about it, they are the builders, they as well as us are the tech leaders in the game but will most likely overtake us quite rapidly. Plus, the opportunity to whore all those techs will translate into $$ and thus into military power in the future. And I doubt they will be vying for a cultural victory...

please comment so I can send the agreement to him ASAP. I have already told them we have officially agreed to the tech deal, it's just this no-build clauses which need to be hammered out.

	28-05-2003 10:30									#2
	Got spare money?

Just confirming....

We dont build Sistine Chapel and JS Bach's Cathedral
They dont build Leo's Workshop and Copernicus Observatory

I like this.

But are you proposing that we go for Copernicus Observatory ?

It still means our capital remains idle building up shields while we at war. It also means we have to research Astromony.

I am not against the idea.... I am just not sure if I want Copernicus Observatory or Leo's Workshop.

Hmmmmm

I think I would like to shoot for Leo's. And if we dont get it, fall back onto Copernicus Observatory.

As we seem to have such a great relationship with Lego...is it possible to do a secondary tech agreement.

We do Invention (assuming we get engineering from Vox in tme), and they do Astromony ? Or we can switch it around. Then we get the choice of build either at the same time.

Have we built any libraries at all ? I dont think so. So we are not really geared up for a strong science gameplan. The Observ. would be nice, but its not our "style".

We are warmongerors, and leo's would be better for us. I still think we have a chance to get it, and we should explore it.

We need to know...when do we get engineering from Vox ?



Also...my opinion is that we should still agree to the MZ plan. It gives us more room to breath and decide where we want to go.


Also...MZ - Did you explore the idea of borrowing money from Lego ?

I did ask for rates from GS when we were friends, and early in the game....its posted very early in their diplo thread. It would not hurt, to do the same with Lego.

Regs

	28-05-2003 10:35									#3
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The reason for the Observatory as I said in the post was not necessarily for us to build it but for Lego NOT to build it as it would give them a huge science boost and only in the extreme case we don't get Leo's then we would switch.

I.e. in other words it denies this wonder to the civ which would use it most and gives us a secure back up plan in case someone snatches Leo's (which I suspect GS might be pre-building)

	28-05-2003 16:27									#4
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MZ - Then we agree.

What you have typed, is exactly what I was trying to say in my post

Go for Leos...if we cant do it, drop to the observatory

Just remember,
Leos cost 600 shields, the observatory costs only 400.
So we may have some lost shields if we drop back.

	30-05-2003 06:36									#5
	Lego Screwed Us Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Lego had feudalism :

quote: Panzer_32> hello Vondrack vondrack> hello Panzer_32> how did you get feudalism? vondrack> well, you know, things got a bit complicated... let me explain Panzer_32> go ahead vondrack> first: Master Zen told me that our deal was "accepted" vondrack> no "but's" vondrack> second: later on, Master Zen told ZargonX (our current Prez) that the deal was "accepted with on modification" vondrack> *one vondrack> and that modification was supposed to be another no-wonder clause on our side vondrack> though it was just in a chat, not even the wonder was named vondrack> this was, I admit, rather... uh... "surprising", to be diplomatic Panzer_32> just a minute... let me find the thread it was brought up in... vondrack> the deal was heavily lopsided in your favour beaker-wise, so that one extra no-wonder on your side was meant as a balance vondrack> nevermind... we were waiting for a written agreement from your side vondrack> at least with a counterproposal or something vondrack> but we received nothing even though we sat on the save for 12+ hours Panzer_32> I was under the impression that you had agreed to it... I guess MZ wasn't entirely clear. vondrack> agreed to what? Panzer_32> the extra clause. vondrack> another no-wonder one? vondrack> it would have been difficult, since that wonder was not even named!? vondrack> Zargon expressed some understanding (and he got some heat in our forum even for that) Panzer_32> so you got Feudalism from GS? vondrack> but we have never been even informed about what kind of a wonder it should have been vondrack> well, yes, now for the Feu part vondrack> this is where things get really complicated vondrack> on the very turn all this was happening vondrack> we received Feudalism basically for free vondrack> not from GS vondrack> I am not sure if I can say from which team it was vondrack> we were waiting 12+ hours to hear back from you vondrack> but since we haven't heard back from you (nothing written) Panzer_32> sorry, we didn't know you were holding on to the save vondrack> we went ahead and accepted that Feudalism vondrack> yes vondrack> well, you know vondrack> Master Zen said (twice) vondrack> that he would send a written confirmation vondrack> never did so vondrack> plus this extra new clause we were not very excited about... vondrack> now, we still want to make a good deal with you Panzer_32> I don't know why he wouldn't have sent it... discussion in the thread stopped yesterday... vondrack> no idea - you will probably have to ask him Panzer_32> maybe he forgot vondrack> perhaps... but was reminded twice (by me, then by Zargon) Panzer_32> Well, I guess I'll report this back to the team vondrack> ok, now... can we try informally discuss whatever we can do now? vondrack> we are still interested in Chivalry vondrack> we still want to deliver at least Theology vondrack> and we are still interested in no-wonder clauses vondrack> can we work something out? vondrack> what about this: vondrack> Theology + no-Leo's for Chivalry + no-Sistine's? Panzer_32> ok. That sounds ok to me, I'll post it and see what others think vondrack> yeah - please, consider it just something to start from vondrack> I have no authorization from the team Panzer_32> right vondrack> but I believe that Legos will consider it a fair one vondrack> I know I would Panzer_32> ok, thats all for now? vondrack> do you have any other idea? Panzer_32> nope vondrack> this one was the first thing that occured to me... vondrack> well, then... I am quite sorry that the deal went wrong way Panzer_32> ok, bye for now vondrack> but we felt that rejecting the Feudalism offer we were made would not be the brightest thing to do, you know vondrack> though we would still do it vondrack> if we heard back from you vondrack> not sure if Master Zen is not used to sending things written vondrack> but things just discussed in chat are rather unreliable vondrack> we have two chatlogs with him vondrack> in the one with me vondrack> he said "accepted" vondrack> few hours later, with ZargonX vondrack> he said "modification needed" Panzer_32> I see your point vondrack> may I post this conversation in our forum? Panzer_32> sure vondrack> thanks Panzer_32> and may I do likewise? vondrack> vondrack> of course vondrack> ok, 3:30am here vondrack> bedtime vondrack> good night! Panzer_32> good night

Soo...

1. Do we take Theology + no-Leo's for Chivalry + no-Sistine's?

2. Someone gave Lego Feudalism virtually for free. It wasn't GS. Either it was Vox as a result of all the money Lego gave them, or it was Roleplay cementing an alliance

	30-05-2003 08:01									#6
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New evil plan:

1) take that deal

2) new deal:

Chivalry + World Map + no-builds for JS and SC from from us

Theology + Education + no-builds for Leo's


basically same as the original plan, except instead of giving Feudalism we give our map, which will probably make it the most expensive map ever sold

Let's see if they agree

	30-05-2003 08:47									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

We should remind those b@stards what we did for them when we first met. We gave them a **** load of tech for next to nothing.

Include in any future deal, we want to know who screwed us over, and gifted them fuedalsim.
In fact... tell them we are assuming it is Roleplay.


This worked well for us 2x before.

Remember this....

Panzer telling Vox that they should not deal through their Luxian puppets to buy tech.
We get an email back straight away appoligising, and 2 rounds after that, Vox invades Lux and kills'em.

Then we had one of us telling GS that we know they are using Vox as their puppets, and we knew they were in an alliance. We get an email back and a chat session were they come clean and tell us of their exact relationship with Vox (tech alliance). A few weeks later, GS & Vox are at war.

I say we do it to Lego & RP.
Catch Vondrack in chat.
Tell him we are pissed that they have screwed us over. Especially after what we did to bring them up to tech speed.
Tell him we were just trying to negotiate an extra clause on an already accepted agreement. We had already agreed to it, but wanted to see if you would ammend it.
Therefore, at a minimum, we consider the original deal still in effect. If they got fuedalism from somewhere else, then that's their problem. Be irrational about it...go berzerk...Tell them we will invade....They know they can defend against us...but they would not really want to have to go to a military build up.
Tell them we now have no choice but to use our shields to build Sistines...Grrraaaaahh !

Tell them that we are aware of their alliances with RolePlay. Tell them we are not happy about it, and tell them that we will begin to treat them as "one team" in future tech agreements, and plan on ensuring all the other teams are made aware of it.

Gentlemen...we did this to Vox/Lux and GS/Vox. It did not matter if we were right or not...it got the desired effect. Lets lob over a hand grenade and see what happens.

2nd... WE MUST CONSIDER HOW ALL THE ALLIANCES ARE SHAPING TOGETHER.

Lego & Roleplay
Lego & Vox
Vox & Roleplay

GoW & ND
GoW & Vox ??? Perhaps

GS & .......

Again... I suggest we look at chaging our allegence with Vox. Lets face it... VOX is dead. Unless we support them 100%, cancel the RP war, and get RP to send troops, then nothing will save them.

In my evil plan thread...I strongly suggest we consider aligning with GS.

This will make it...

ND & GoW & GS
vs
RP & Lego & Vox.

Lego are builders and hopefully are not prepared for a war to come to their allies defense.

So...

We give GS Chivalry
GS & Vox continue to war.......It will not be immediate, but eventually GS will win.
ND & GoW go to war against RP....Lego will find it difficult to raise a navy and army to help them.

That will leave GS, GoW & ND vs Lego.

Those b@astard Lego shites...Unleash Guido and Nunzio

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 30-05-2003 at 09:00

	30-05-2003 09:39									#8
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You know, I could've used a little "briefing" once I got the job as CoFA. I had no idea we had given them techs and stuff at the beginning. If I had known about that, hell, I would've unleashed Guido, Nunzio, Bubba and Rip.

Please people, pleeeeeeease, tell me of these things once we start dealing with a team, or our bargaining base will be much much weaker.

I'll use this to extort them deal #2