28-05-2003 12:27									#1
	Human evolution gone awry Full PM-box? Change here!

I can't help but think there is a serious problem with the human genetic line. It seems the unskilled portion of the population is reproducing at an unprecedented rate. Which isn't unheard of certainly- but often the death rate was high and this was never an issue.

Modern medicine has to have an impact on human evolution somehow. We have a society in which the weak are allowed to survive and reroduce and have offspring that survive. What effect will this have on society?

I can't help but think there will be a crisis. We already have a crisis of competant medical care in the U.S. It is diffcult to find people skilled enough to be doctors for such a large population. In normal times that is OK. But in times of war or disease this will cause a problem. Of course that could be the point. The problem is most likely self correcting. War or disease will "fix" the overpopulation problem.

Or will technology save us all? So far, technology has been doing a great job. We have built machines to do most of the work. We in the U.S. don't have that high a need for skilled labour. We have been getting buy on a large pool of unskilled workers. Our economy is becoming serviced based. So perhaps technology can save us all. But I can't help but think somehow this is a fragile support. That if something happens, most people lack the basic skills of survival.

	28-05-2003 12:55									#2
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It's a common misperception that children of unskilled people are stupid.

It's very common however that children from overachieving and smart parents turn out to be complete morons.

But it's possible that unskilled parents see less value in education which can bury their children's potential.

The environment in which a child grows up is far more important than the societal status of their parents.

	28-05-2003 12:58									#3
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We are the descent of unskilled laborers. Do you feel inadapted?

	28-05-2003 13:21									#4
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Not to mention that childbirth (here) is at an all time low.
-

quote: That if something happens, most people lack the basic skills of survival.

There is no knowing who has the skills to survive until you actually would get in that situation. It's the circomstances that create hero's...

	28-05-2003 14:54									#5
	Re: Human evolution gone awry Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Dissident It seems the unskilled portion of the population is reproducing at an unprecedented rate.

Skills are acquired, which can't be passed down to the next generation by genetics.

	28-05-2003 15:00									#6
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I guess that argument depends on "unskilled" labour being an actual evolutionary concept. Each human is unique. There has never been, is not, and will never be another person identical in nature and nurture to any given human.

As such, we are all optimised for certain things, there is something that given human can do better than anyone else. Some refer to that as a talent. It is my belief that when one averages it all out, all humans are as capable as each other (I am reluctant to say intelligence as that carries implications of quantitive subjective tests like IQ, or purely mental capacity where some people are better physically).

The result is that there is no such thing as an "unskilled" person. Of course in reality, society has certain roles to perform, and one who doesnt easily fit into those, are is best suited to a pre-set role that is "unskilled", is likely to be labelled "unskilled". My dispute is in that being genetic.

One often used to hear of business called "soandso and son", implying a family link. The question is, did that son enter the parents business because he was brought up to, or because he was best suited? In many cases, it would be the former.

I think that we should discourage parents from forcing their own aspirations on the children. Of course they are and should try to mould them in a certain way, but there is a line to be crossed, and determining the future of the childs life, as opposed to that child determining it, is past the line.

	28-05-2003 15:02									#7
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Take a trip around any British council estate and you see what Dissident is saying. Poorly educated parents who don't think for a second about spending their children's clothing money on booze every Friday, or about swearing to their kids, or about brainwashing them against the police.

	28-05-2003 15:04									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Take a trip around any British council estate and you see what Dissident is saying. Poorly educated parents who don't think for a second about spending their children's clothing money on booze every Friday, or about swearing to their kids, or about brainwashing them against the police.

Your braver than me, I wouldn't take a trip round one.

	28-05-2003 15:06									#9
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I'll have you know that the good majority of medical personelle I know (my mom work for a hospital so I know a lot) come from lazy unskilled parents.

	28-05-2003 15:13									#10
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Your braver than me, I wouldn't take a trip round one.

Go to a precinct near one then. Or a pub.

Actually, the council estates in Aberystwyth haven't been populated by that much scum yet.

How about we lock them into their shitehole communities and let them fend for themselves.

	28-05-2003 15:14									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident That if something happens, most people lack the basic skills of survival.

Hm... this is relative. See how long can you survive in the middle of a rainforest?

	28-05-2003 15:15									#12
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"Take a trip around any British council estate and you see what Dissident is saying. Poorly educated parents who don't think for a second about spending their children's clothing money on booze every Friday, or about swearing to their kids, or about brainwashing them against the police"

Thats what I mean! Children are being wasted by their parents because they brainwash them, they paint them, with their own simplistic views, perpetuating a cycle of idiocy, anti-authoritarianism, and ultimately, the social conditions that are often near poverty. It makes it even more admirable when someone breaks that circle and uses their own potential instead of falling back on the way their parents train them.

	28-05-2003 15:17									#13
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"Your braver than me, I wouldn't take a trip round one"

Ditto. Got severly beaten up in one in my home town because I:

"look like a tw@t".

Do people purposely not use their brains?

	28-05-2003 15:26									#14
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"How about we lock them into their shitehole communities and let them fend for themselves"

I prefer the idea of helping them break out of the cycle of poverty, and realise the value of education.

	28-05-2003 15:28									#15
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quote: Originally posted by elijah "How about we lock them into their shitehole communities and let them fend for themselves" I prefer the idea of helping them break out of the cycle of poverty, and realise the value of education.

Help them help themselves.

Fact is, who wants to educate some kids who are "bored of education" (for a nice phrase) in the shitlands of Salford, Liverpool or London?

The kids' education is ruined by the time they are five anyway, usually.

	28-05-2003 15:32									#16
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"Fact is, who wants to educate some kids who are "bored of education" (for a nice phrase) in the shitlands of Salford, Liverpool or London?

The kids' education is ruined by the time they are five anyway, usually"

We gotta try. It would be irresponsible to simply allow them to slip back into that cycle, rather than to try make at least some impression on them. What about the children being born? It is important to stop this vicious circle dead in its tracks, rather than buring it under the carpet. Society works when people help each other, a basic altruism inherent to all humans is how civilisation starts. These people, with enormous potential, need our help, which as a society, we can at least offer, and we need them, more skilled jobs etc. First step is a big increase in education spending.

	28-05-2003 15:33									#17
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"First step is a big increase in education spending."

..funded by the privatisation of the NHS.

	28-05-2003 15:36									#18
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"funded by the privatisation of the NHS"

Funded by a privatisation of the fire service, and the abolishion of speed cameras in all but built up areas.

Alternatively, the government could just screw the phone companies again!! That was an absolutely classic!

	28-05-2003 15:44									#19
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quote: Funded by a privatisation of the fire service, and the abolishion of speed cameras in all but built up areas.

Build digital speed cameras everywhere and enforce the speed limit. Make the fines larger.

Should be a source of revenue from proven criminals.

Speeding is as acceptable as drink-driving.

	28-05-2003 15:58									#20
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1. Skills and knowledge aren't genetic.
2. The so called "weak" aren't "weak" because of any fault of their own... they were just born into the wrong system. Like skills and knowledge, it isn't genetic.
3. Diss, get help... please...

	28-05-2003 16:05									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Build digital speed cameras everywhere and enforce the speed limit. Make the fines larger.

I like the idea of public surveillance. But speeding alone isn't as much of a danger as other driving violations. Tailgating is a much worse offense but is often over-looked. Germany has a unique surveillance system. They enforce tail-gating laws more than speeding. And they have less accidents per 100,000 people.

quote: Should be a source of revenue from proven criminals.

I agree that criminals should make money for the state, not cost money.

quote: Speeding is as acceptable as drink-driving.

They are very different. Speeding is not dangerous in all conditions. And by definition, someone going 26mph in a 25mph zone is speeding. Careless lane changes, tailgating, and driver distraction are bigger problems than speeding. Also... I think the weight of the vehicle should factor in to the penalty of speeding as well. A little Honda Civic speeding is less dangerous than a Lincoln Navigator or some other massive SUV speeding.

As with most things, government comes up with bad, ineffective solutions to problems.

	28-05-2003 16:24									#22
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Speed cameras should, without fail, kick in at the speed limit plus 10%.

So you would be caught doing 28mph in a 25 zone, or 80mph in a 70 zone, but not 26mph or 75mph respectively.

	28-05-2003 16:28									#23
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Well you could always go down the 'Welfare to work' program 'making parents responsable' ect and end up with 6 yr olds Killing each other.

	28-05-2003 16:29									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Rothy Well you could always go down the 'Welfare to work' program 'making parents responsable' ect and end up with 6 yr olds Killing each other.

please explain that

	28-05-2003 16:48									#25
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Oh dear, we seem to be having a "debate UK social policy" day today.

Don't confuse being smart with being educated. Anyone watch the Alvin Hall programme last night on Beeb two? Proof that you can get through the UK university system and still not be able to work out that spending more than you earn means you are in debt and going down.

Diss - evolution is about how organisms adapt to their environment. The issue with human beings is that we have stopped adapting to our environment and try to adapt our environment to our needs. In a way we are driving the evolution of the whole biosphere. When it crashes, whether through our actions or not, we are likely to go back to evolving to suit our environment again.

The last couple of hundred years isn't a long time compared to the 40,000 plus years that homo sapiens has been around. Give it time.

	28-05-2003 16:49									#26
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quote: Or will technology save us all? So far, technology has been doing a great job. We have built machines to do most of the work. We in the U.S. don't have that high a need for skilled labour. We have been getting buy on a large pool of unskilled workers. Our economy is becoming serviced based. So perhaps technology can save us all. But I can't help but think somehow this is a fragile support. That if something happens, most people lack the basic skills of survival.

Too much technology also creates unemployment amongst the socially lower part of the population. When only high-tech, difficult jobs are vacant, people who are not that intelligent don't have much options anymore except being a waiter in a bar or something. You have to have a good balance between labour and technology I think. Also the fact that the majority of the population is not very smart is something to take into account.


America shouldn't worry really, their population is still growing, and they have enough room and space to house these people...
We on the other hand, especially in Belgium, have some serious problems... our population is veeeery slowly declining, due to less births, but on the other hand people live longer, and because the percentage of younger people who are able to work is too low, we won't be able to support the elder population... Basically we would be working in order to keep these old people alive, but we won't have any more $$$ for ourselves. big problem in the west here.

On top of that, we don't have any room for new people, so breeding new humans isn't a solution either.

	28-05-2003 17:00									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus We on the other hand, especially in Belgium, have some serious problems... our population is veeeery slowly declining, due to less births, but on the other hand people live longer, and because the percentage of younger people who are able to work is too low, we won't be able to support the elder population... Basically we would be working in order to keep these old people alive, but we won't have any more $$$ for ourselves. big problem in the west here.

Don't plan on retiring anytime soon, whether in Belgium or the UK. It won't be long before the politicians panic and start to push retirement age upwards.

	28-05-2003 17:02									#28
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Of course the UK's pension problems are nothing compared to most of europes, at least our pensions are partially funded

	28-05-2003 18:40									#29
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quote: Don't plan on retiring anytime soon, whether in Belgium or the UK. It won't be long before the politicians panic and start to push retirement age upwards.

They already started in France, By the time we retire, count on having to blow out 70 to 75 candles .

	28-05-2003 19:42									#30
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Obviously we must follow the successful breeding techniques of primitive peoples: through disease and murder, they insure only the healthiest, most clever people live. I say,we send Bods (I waffle about diss) to the middle of the Amzon, to live among the Yanomami. That way, either they prove that they are as good as these folks at true survival, or they fail, thus self-actualizing their world view. See, its a win win for them!