28-05-2003 18:44									#1
	Turn 61 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

To be edited by the Consuls and Ministers.

Status:
- Researching map making at 100% (6)
- Luxury Slider at 0%
- 87 gold cash, -2 gpt

Urgent questions & tasks:
FAM: Negotiations with GCA: NAP
FAM: Negotiations with CDG: MM for Math+Philosophy back on?, NAP & border combo.
MoI: build in Tripoli - what shall we switch to?

Unit movement & actions:
N1 'MerZenary' fortified
N2 'Mao' moves SE (3)
W2 'BigFree' to move NW (7)
W3 'Alva' to move E (6)
W4 'Theseus' to skip turn
W5 'BFW' fortified
W6 'Hagbart' fortified in Tripoli
W7 'WhiteBandit' to skip turn
W8 'not_panag' fortified in Apolyton
W9 'X' moves NW (7)

Economy:
Apolyton building merc
Mingapulco finished barracks; starts warrior
Banatopia building granary
Incensity building merc
Tripoli building walls. MoI: What do we switch to?? Walls

WF: See this [URLblank]blank[/URL] for WF placements
Apolyton: 4-13-17 no change
Mingapulco: 2-3-10 no change
Bananatopia: 2-19 no change
Incensity: 5-14 no change
Tripoli: 2 no change

Workers
Worker1 'Dan' starts clearing jungle (12)
Worker2 'Monkee' chopping (1)
Worker3 'panag' building mine (1)
Worker4 'EVC' starts mining (6)


Diplomacy:
CDG: NAP expired. Talking about renewal - draft in works.
GCA: NAP expired. Renewal close. Tech trade in effect Map Making and Horseback Riding for Polytheism and Mysticism
CFC: NAP in effect (to Turn 83).

Comment, please, many "plans" (especially those marked with '??') are just suggestions or ideas, not decisions already made.

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Discussion and basic reporting to follow. See the topped thread for comprehensive results.

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Last edited by E_T on 29-05-2003 at 04:20

	28-05-2003 23:20									#2
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I believe we have the NAP with GCA as it was officially signed on Turn 59?

	29-05-2003 04:16									#3
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quote: Tripoli building walls. MoI: What do we switch to??

Keep it at walls. It doesn't require maintainance cost. It increases the defensive posture of that STRATIGIC City. What else would you like to build there?? I'm still working on Tripoli's sheet, but that really looks like the best option for now.

MoI E_T

	29-05-2003 04:22									#4
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This is a standing request, from the MoI: please Forward the save to me when it arrives.

E_T

	29-05-2003 05:24									#5
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Well, if not walls then a mec perhaps. However, you seem to have quite a few mercs elsewhere so walls may not be a bad thing as a just in case build.

	29-05-2003 07:14									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

exactly my reasoning...

E_T

	29-05-2003 09:12									#7
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I would think a Baracks would go nice in Tripoli.

	29-05-2003 12:21									#8
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As the MoI has not yet been in office long enough to finalise his future build plan (and the AltSp hasn't gone to any kind of vote as of yet), I have to ask - what does the MoI see as being built in all our cities over the next 2-3 builds?

If he thinks that Tripoli should be building units after the next build, then a Barracks would be a good idea for producing vet Warriors or Swords. If not, then a Barracks is just wasteful until we DO plan to build units there - to the tune of an extra -1gpt.

E_T - I don't want to stress you here, but it would be nice (and helpful for builds!) if you could look at Tripoli at least and say what you would like to be built there over the next little while.

	29-05-2003 13:42									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

Bah. Walls. They're no good if no one ever comes around to attack them. And if they do attack, it very probably won't be that city.

Better switch to NM, IMHO.

	29-05-2003 16:52									#10
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My reason to ask for the switch clarification was that I consider walls in Tripoli 20 shields wasted. By the time Persia will be in a shape to attack us with at least a small stack of immortals, we will most probably have another city down on the coast, by the dyes, and Tripoli will become a "rear" city. And even if not... Fortified Mercs on hills have total defense of 5.25 - that is enough to make attackers choose a different target (it would be better to attack our capital then).

EDIT: Tripoli sucks quite a bit as a city ATM and for some 15+ more turns (due to low food production). IF Persia attacked there, I believe they'd most probably attack/cut the iron, 'cause that is what is of strategic importance there. The city can be bypassed... in favour of our other cities (which are all on flat land).

Merc would be ok, Barracks would be ok if we plan to produce units there. Even F-P's Temple would be better than walls...

EDIT: I think I would vote for a merc in Tripoli - will make building that galley in Incensity less of a loss from the military point of view.

Last edited by vondrack on 29-05-2003 at 19:16

	29-05-2003 19:26									#11
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As there was nothing to discuss for this turn, I went ahead and played the save promptly according to the turn schedule (as I am leaving in about 10 minutes and will not be able to play it for several hours then - report to be posted after I come back home).

Worth mentioning:

1) Our military now weak compared to CDG (but we shall have 2 mercs + 1 warrior in 3 turns).
2) Forest chop finished, 10 shields added to the Granary build (Granary in 2 turns). BONUS grassland appears!
3) no barb camp spotted in the SE.
4) CDG worker is improving the gold hill...!?
5) Morris out of sight.

	29-05-2003 20:25									#12
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I, too, think that Walls is a pretty bad build in any city at this point.


Dominae

	29-05-2003 20:31									#13
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General comment about Walls in Civ 3:

Yes, they have no maintenance cost, but the inital shield cost is only worth it if either of the following occurs:

1. That city is attacked prior to reaching pop 7.

2. Having the walls detered the opponent from declaring war on your empire in the first place.

As a result, walls are only particlary useful if built on all cities along the boarder with a given oppoent that don't have a natural aquaduct (river / lake)

	29-05-2003 20:53									#14
	Got spare money?

Our army, compared to CDG, was already Weak in Turn 60.

Vondrack - how is it compared to GCA?

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 29-05-2003 at 21:37

	29-05-2003 21:41									#15
	Tired of ads?

CDG's Ambassador sent me a meesage that we were supposed to move WBigFree East this turn and then NE from then on; but I believe this to be a mistake.

At any rate the turn was played and sent on (properly) by vondrack berfore I could post the PM recieved by Loius XXIV. I'm waiting to hear back from him stating that we should have moved West and then NW from then on instead of how he stated it. I think he just got his East/West mixed up for a moment like we've all probably done at some point in our lives.


"WEAK" You said, "WEAK!" Glad we are building some more NM's

	29-05-2003 22:05									#16
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn General comment about Walls in Civ 3: Yes, they have no maintenance cost, but the inital shield cost is only worth it if either of the following occurs: 1. That city is attacked prior to reaching pop 7. 2. Having the walls detered the opponent from declaring war on your empire in the first place. As a result, walls are only particlary useful if built on all cities along the boarder with a given oppoent that don't have a natural aquaduct (river / lake)

I believe someone did some recent tests (multiple thousands of reptitions, valid testin IMO) that showed that walls DO in fact help a city that is above size 6, despite what the Civilopedia and common beliefs said. Was on CFC somewhere..

	29-05-2003 22:25									#17
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You are right F-P, it's a 'bug.' But since the next patch is due out soon, I'd count on that 'bug' to be fixed. The patch will very likely be out before we get those walls even built.

	30-05-2003 00:02									#18
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But will the patch be used in this game?

	30-05-2003 01:14									#19
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I think warror 9 was to be "E_T"... but I'm assuming he might have raised some objections- was that true? Since I made note of it in the other thread... If so, I'll look for another name

	30-05-2003 01:27									#20
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nevermind- I just checked the naming thread- how about

"PanzerWarrior" for warrior 9

and we'll just put E_T on hold

	30-05-2003 03:11									#21
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack As there was nothing to discuss for this turn, I went ahead and played the save promptly according to the turn schedule (as I am leaving in about 10 minutes and will not be able to play it for several hours then - report to be posted after I come back home). Worth mentioning: 1) Our military now weak compared to CDG (but we shall have 2 mercs + 1 warrior in 3 turns). 2) Forest chop finished, 10 shields added to the Granary build (Granary in 2 turns). BONUS grassland appears! 3) no barb camp spotted in the SE. 4) CDG worker is improving the gold hill...!? 5) Morris out of sight.

One more notable thing I missed first and noticed only when creating the map for the turn report:

6) There is a warrior party held at the chokepoint. Warriors from all teams there (left to right): CFC, GCA, CDG, Poly (and CDG again).
7) It is confirmed - CDG really heads for the chokepoint. Their settler, escorted by Barry the Warrior, is just one tile to the East of it.

BFM - we are weak compared to GCA, too.

	30-05-2003 03:23									#22
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Thanks, Vondrack. If it's not too much to ask, can you report the F3 Military status every turn?

Two observations:

• The GCA warrior arrived from the CFC part of the choke point. Interesting.
  
• The GCA warrior is a Conscript!