29-05-2003 18:40									#31
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In all the factions of Palestinian politics (of which I'm not aware of), the one constant is the desire to blow up women and children... using women and children. The Pal's started using women suicide bombers because, according to the report I saw last night, "They don't get scrutinized as much at security checkpoints." It's only a matter of time before they start strapping bombs to 10 year old kids.

	29-05-2003 18:43									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior This is Arafat, not some random terrorist.

Yeah, this is the real deal!

	29-05-2003 18:45									#33
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I don't think the PLFP ever carried out a suicide bombing inside of israel vs. civilians.

I saw that report too, and yes, it is disheartening. The porblem is, is house demolition the way to solve it back? Eye for an eye? After all, that is the original theory in the first place.

	29-05-2003 19:59									#34
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You'd be surprised but this isn't the first time Palestinian civilians try to stop masked gunmen. This happenned several times in the West Bank and the gunmen simply shot the Palestinians dead. This of course did not get international media coverage (no inner Palestinian conflicts do). But I reported it some year and a half ago.

About Arafat's power - he directly controls the majority of security services in the PA, as the head of the PLO and the president of the PA.

He has now, by means of presidential order, set up a "security council" to oversee the security services which according to the reform, were supposed to be under Abu Mazen, and his Minister of Security, Dahlan.

The new council consists of Abu Mazen, Dahlan, Arafat (as chairman) and 3 Arafat lakies (promising a majority to Arafat).

If you want to know more, I posted sources about this issue, about a month ago.


GePap - No PFLP never carried a suicide bombing. However they did plant car bombs, pipe bombs, and event intended to plant toy bombs.

PFLP leader was killed by IDF gunships, when Israel learnt they were planning a group of several terracts targetting children. They intended to plant explosive teddy bears and toys around kindergartens and in playgrounds.


From ICT.org.il:
(in depth details cut out)

quote: Terror Attack - Aug 31, 2002 Mode of Operation: Infiltration Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Civilian Location: Har Bracha, West Bank No. Casualties: Killed: 0 Injured: 2 Details: An Israeli couple from Jerusalem sustained moderate to serious injuries when a terrorist infiltrated the settlement of Bracha, near Nablus. The infiltrator was killed. Terror Attack - Jun 20, 2002 Mode of Operation: Infiltration Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Civilian Location: Itamar, West Bank No. Casualties: Killed: 5 Injured: 8 Details: A terrorist infiltration in the West Bank community of Itamar left five people dead and eight wounded. The dead included a mother and three of her children, who were shot to death when a Palestinian terrorist broke into their home. Two other children from the same family were evacuated to hospital with moderate to serious injuries. Terror Attack - Feb 16, 2002 Mode of Operation: Suicide Bomb Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Civilian Location: Karnei Shomron, West Bank No. Casualties: Killed: 3 Injured: 6 Details: Three Israeli teenagers were killed and 29 other people wounded, six seriously, when a suicide bomber blew himself up next to a pizzeria in the Yovelim shopping mall in Karnei Shomron, between Kalkilya and Nablus. Terror Attack - Oct 17, 2001 Mode of Operation: Shooting Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Government Personnel Location: Jerusalem, Israel No. Casualties: Killed: 1 Injured: 0 Details: Israel’s outgoing Tourism Minister, Rehavam Ze'evi, was killed just outside his Jerusalem Hyatt Hotel room. His wife, returning to their room on the eighth floor of the hotel, discovered him in the hallway just before 7:00 AM. He was taken to Hadassah-University Hospital where he was clinically dead on arrival; urgent treatment failed to revive him, and he was pronounced dead about two hours later, at around 10:00. Terror Attack - Sep 3, 2001 Mode of Operation: Bombing Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Civilian Location: Jerusalem, Israel No. Casualties: Killed: 0 Injured: 6 Details: Four pipe bombs exploded in different parts of Jerusalem over a twelve-hour period. Six people were lightly wounded, and a number were treated for shock. Terror Attack - Aug 27, 2001 Mode of Operation: Shooting Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Airport Location: Har Bracha, West Bank No. Casualties: Killed: 1 Injured: 0 Details: An Israeli motorist was shot and killed by Palestinian terrorists from a roadside ambush while travelling between the communities of Har Bracha and Itamar, South of Nablus. Terror Attack - Jul 2, 2001 Mode of Operation: Car Bomb Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Civilian Location: Yehud, Israel No. Casualties: Killed: 0 Injured: 6 Details: At about 8:20 am on Monday, two separate bombs exploded in cars in the Tel-Aviv suburb of Yehud. Six pedestrians were lightly injured. Terror Attack - May 27, 2001 Mode of Operation: Car Bomb Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Civilian Location: Jerusalem, Israel No. Casualties: Killed: 0 Injured: 0 Details: A car bomb exploded in the center of Jerusalem shortly after midnight. There were no injuries. Terror Attack - Mar 19, 2001 Mode of Operation: Shooting Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Vehicle Location: Gush Etzion, West Bank No. Casualties: Killed: 1 Injured: 0 Details: An Israeli civilian was killed by shots fired at his car while driving to work in Jerusalem from his home in the area of Gush Etzion. After being hit by the bullets, he lost control of the car and collided with an oncoming truck. Terror Attack - Dec 11, 1996 Mode of Operation: Shooting Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Vehicle Location: near Surda, West Bank No. Casualties: Killed: 2 Injured: 0 Details: Etta Tzur, 48, and her son Ephraim, 12, were killed when their car was shot at by terrorists near Surda, west of Beit El. Further Details According to the U.S. State Department's "Patterns of Global Terrorism," this attacks was carried out by the PFLP. Terror Attack - Jun 9, 1996 Mode of Operation: Shooting Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Civilian Location: Zekharya, Israel No. Casualties: Killed: 2 Injured: 0 Details: Unidentified gunmen opened fire on a car near Zekharya, killing a dual US/Israeli citizen and an Israeli. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) is suspected. Terror Attack - Sep 5, 1995 Mode of Operation: Knife Attack Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Civilian Location: Ma'aleh Michmash, West Bank No. Casualties: Killed: 1 Injured: 1 Details: Daniel Frei, 28, of Ma'aleh Michmash, was stabbed to death when a terrorist broke into his home at night. His wife was seriously injured in the attack and lost her unborn child. Terror Attack - Mar 23, 1994 Mode of Operation: Shooting Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Civilian Location: Jerusalem, Israel No. Casualties: Killed: 1 Injured: 0 Details: Victor Lashchiver, employed as a guard at the Income Tax offices in East Jerusalem, was shot and killed near Damascus Gate on his way to work. The Popular Front claimed responsibility for the attack. Terror Attack - Jan 12, 1994 Mode of Operation: Knife Attack Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Civilian Location: Rishon leZion, Israel No. Casualties: Killed: 1 Injured: 0 Details: Three Palestinian workers stabbed Moshe Becker of Rishon Le-Zion to death while working in his orchard. The Popular Front claimed responsibility for the murder. Terror Attack - Dec 31, 1993 Mode of Operation: Shooting Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Civilian Location: Ramle, Israel No. Casualties: Killed: 2 Injured: 0 Details: Chaim Weizman and David Bizi were found murdered in a Ramle apartment. ID cards of two Gaza residents were found in the apartment, together with a leaflet of the Popular Front 'Red Eagle' group, claiming responsibility for the murder. Terror Attack - Oct 9, 1993 Mode of Operation: Knife Attack Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Civilian Location: Wadi Kelt, West Bank No. Casualties: Killed: 2 Injured: 0 Details: Dror Forer and Aran Bachar were murdered by terrorists in Wadi Kelt in the Judean Desert. The Popular Front and the Islamic Jihad 'Al-Aqsa Squads' each publicly claimed responsibility. Terror Attack - Jun 27, 1976 Mode of Operation: Hijacking Organizational Affiliation: Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) Target Type: Aircraft Location: Entebbe, Uganda No. Casualties: Killed: 1 Injured: 0 Details: Entebbe Hostage Crisis: Members of the Baader-Meinhof Group and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) seized an Air France airliner and its 258 passengers. They forced the plane to land in Uganda, where on July 3 Israeli commandos successfully rescued the passengers.

	29-05-2003 20:20									#35
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The porblem is, is house demolition the way to solve it back? Eye for an eye?

I'm sorry, you want to explain to me how demolishing someone's home is the same thing as murdering civilians with a bomb (and suggesting using 10 year olds to do it)?

	29-05-2003 20:50									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Sharon isn't helping the peace process at all, but if there's someone who is an even greater burden it is Arafat. Give it up Yassir, you were a fabulous revolutionary, now you're no better than Castro, sacrificing the well being of your homeland (which I begin to think you really don't give a crap about) just for a blind and childish stranglehold of power. Do your people a favor, get the hell out of Palestine.

Spiffor and Master Zen, I am four posts into this thread and have already read two from the left attacking Arafat. There are the first two posts I recall seeing from the left that really go after the master terrorist Arafat. If this represents a sea change from the left in recognizing that we must deal with Arafat to achieve peace in the ME, then there is real hope for the future.

	29-05-2003 21:12									#37
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Siro, How can the summits between Abbas and Sharon, and later Bush, go forward if Arafat still is in charge?

	29-05-2003 21:56									#38
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Ned, how can we not meet them when under American pressure?

But there has got to be American pressure supporting the removal of Arafat sooner or later, in whatever way.

	29-05-2003 21:59									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico You're kidding, right? Tell me you're kidding here. Mazen is a Holocaust "revisionist" for crying out loud.

Show me someone better from the ****ed up bunch that is the PA. I rest my case.

	29-05-2003 22:13									#40
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quote: Originally posted by GePap , if it were Israeli forces trying to get at militants from hamas and 7 people die, would Oerdin have said a thing? There is a certainy strange hypocrasy in that.

Sure, I would have. I would have been forced to once the ussual suspects make ten threads all saying how evil/inhuman/nasty/bad (insert derogitory statement here) the Israels are.

You don't find it even the slightest bit odd that some people endlessly crusify Israel while Arafat has his thugs gun down political decenters and no one bats an eyelash? Instead we get people making paternalistic speeches about how no one ever really expects the Palestinians to behaive differently. As if some how Palestinian Arabs just can't be held to the same standards as the civilized world

I say they can be held to the same standards and if we force the issue we just might be able to help the Palestinian people rid themselves of this injustice.

	29-05-2003 22:27									#41
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quote: I say they can be held to the same standards and if we force the issue we just might be able to help the Palestinian people rid themselves of this injustice.

	29-05-2003 22:56									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Spiffor and Master Zen, I am four posts into this thread and have already read two from the left attacking Arafat. There are the first two posts I recall seeing from the left that really go after the master terrorist Arafat. If this represents a sea change from the left in recognizing that we must deal with Arafat to achieve peace in the ME, then there is real hope for the future.

There has never been a change. Any person with a speck of intelligence be him left, center or right can tell Arafat is the foremost impedimtnet to the peace process. I don't understand why there is so much generalizations about what leftists believe, that we apparently seem to defend every terrorist and dictator out there. That's bull. If only your side could also stop putting ideology before reason and start questioning your own positions on things THEN there would be hope for the future.

	29-05-2003 23:02									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen There has never been a change. Any person with a speck of intelligence be him left, center or right can tell Arafat is the foremost impedimtnet to the peace process. I don't understand why there is so much generalizations about what leftists believe, that we apparently seem to defend every terrorist and dictator out there. That's bull. If only your side could also stop putting ideology before reason and start questioning your own positions on things THEN there would be hope for the future.

Master Zen, hopefully we are on the same side, left and right, in opposing dictatorships and in favor of liberation of oppressed peoples.

	29-05-2003 23:12									#44
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The problem is that in reality, the left "liberates" people for the benefit of "the party" (whichever one it happens to be) while the right "liberates" people for the benefit of an external elite, whether it's as a proxy for a foreign power, for multinational corporations (United Fruit and M. A. Hanna are historical examples), or for the benefit of a stratified socioeconomic elite. The end result is that most people just get screwed by a new leadership, maybe working for a new set of masters.

	29-05-2003 23:31									#45
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We certainly screwed the West Germans when we liberated them. Same goes for the Japanese and the Koreans.

	29-05-2003 23:37									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Master Zen, hopefully we are on the same side, left and right, in opposing dictatorships and in favor of liberation of oppressed peoples.

If that means we are to support the actions of the US "liberating" countries like what happened in Iraq? Hell no. There is nothing righeous of those kinds of actions and no one with a bit of common sense can consider that "liberation of oppressed peoples" with such dirty intentions behind it.

	29-05-2003 23:39									#47
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Master Zen: Is liberating an oppressed people ever justified in your view?

	29-05-2003 23:50									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Master Zen: Is liberating an oppressed people ever justified in your view?

If there is an honest and truthful intention to do so yes, if it is simply a propaganda cover-up for something else, of course not. Sadly, the Iraq war was a typical example of the latter.

	30-05-2003 00:31									#49
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Michael the Great, the left seems consistently opposed to the United States government opposing nationalization of US companies without compensation by radical elements in Latin America. The left seems to have some ideology that US companies "exploit" (as in "steal") both the resources and the labor of any country in which its invests. For this reason, the left almost advocates that US companies be nationalized, of course, without compensation because of this evil exploitation. So when United States government objects to this, it is of course wrong, because such nationalization itself was correct from the left's point-of-view, and America's intervention to protect its citizens property is nothing but naked "imperialism."

In a nutshell, though, US companies no more exploit the resources and labor of Latin American countries than they exploit resources and labor of America. If the principal the left advocates with respect to Latin American countries is valid, then US companies should be nationalized even in the United States, of course, without compensation. But this is not nothing less than extreme Marxism, is it not? This is Communism.

So admit it, Michael the Great, you are a communist.

Last edited by Ned on 30-05-2003 at 01:46

	30-05-2003 00:36									#50
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I was following you for a little while there, Ned, but then you jumped off a cliff.

-Arrian

	30-05-2003 00:41									#51
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Arrian: Just when you thought Ned was sane... unfortunetly he does that quite often (seems sane, then goes off the deep end ).

	30-05-2003 00:52									#52
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Ned is trolling, and you're easy targets.

	30-05-2003 00:55									#53
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Azazel,

He's actually a decent troll in that - like Imran says - he manages to occasionally make a serious, semi-sane post or two before cuttin' loose with the trollage.

-Arrian

	30-05-2003 00:57									#54
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He's one of my favourites. He's a rather good guy , too. For a rightist, that is. .

	30-05-2003 02:03									#55
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Azazel, thanks.

Arian and Imarn, the argument "goes off the cliff," because I did not logically tie the premise to the final conclusion. The underlying link is that only communists advocate nationalization of compaines without compensation. I think this linking argument is valid, I respectfully submit, because communism is the only ideology of which I am aware that justifies and even advoctes nationalizations without compesantion. (Communists would even executed the greedy capitalist, pig-owners if they could get their hands on them.) I have seen no socialist that has ever advocated this, although I may be wrong.

The history of US "Imperialism" in Latin America is closely tied to the protection of US lives and property in the concerned states. The killing of any US citizen or the confiscation without compensation of a US citizen's property is an act of war. If any for a second doubt this, consider the act of piracy. Is piracy legitimate if conducted by a sovereign?

If you say yes, then I give you Jefferson's war against the Pasha of Tripoli.

	30-05-2003 02:10									#56
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Nationalism also would allow for nationalization without compensation. Why should the profits of the land (nation) go to a bunch of foreigners? And why should the nation pay these outsiders for their theft?

quote: The history of US "Imperialism" in Latin America is closely tied to the protection of US lives and property in the concerned states.

Actually, it isn't. Part of the time, perhaps, not not the majority of it, by far. Ask Molly Bloom.

	30-05-2003 02:14									#57
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Gepap: A great deal of the US involvement in Latin America for the first 30 years of the 20th century was directly to support US owned businesses who were underthreat from Latin governments and/or revolutionaries.

	30-05-2003 02:20									#58
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FYI, guys, my wife is from Brazil. When we first got married, she would makes statements like American companies are ruining Brazil. This, she said, is why they had so many protectionist barriers to keep US companies out of Brazil.

When I asked her to explain, she then told me that US companies were stealing Brazil's resources and a exploiting its people, etc., etc., etc.

Although my wfe was not a communist, she had only recently graduated from the University of Mineas Gerais. I suspect some of her friends were communists. I really do no know, as this is one of those topic we simply cannot talk about. You will know what I mean by this as soon as you get married.

Of course, what was really going on in Brazil was the protectionism of local business and the Brazilian "elite" by keeping foreign competiton out That the left supported protectionism as well is, to say the least, interesting, given that they are nominally for the people.

Well Brazil has its first leftist president. It will be interesting to see whether he opposes the Brazilian elite and opens Brazil to free trade and foreign investment, or continues to protect the elite and impererish the Brazilian people in the name of Marxism.

	30-05-2003 02:23									#59
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Nationalism also would allow for nationalization without compensation. Why should the profits of the land (nation) go to a bunch of foreigners? And why should the nation pay these outsiders for their theft? quote: The history of US "Imperialism" in Latin America is closely tied to the protection of US lives and property in the concerned states. Actually, it isn't. Part of the time, perhaps, not not the majority of it, by far. Ask Molly Bloom.

GePap the Pirate, or is it Communist!

	30-05-2003 02:24									#60
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GePap, as your professor of history, I want you to write a 1000 word essay on why Piracy is legitimate when conducted by a sovereign.