29-05-2003 03:08									#1
	Arafat's guerrillas shot 7; world silent. Support Apolyton

Guerrillas loyal to Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat clashed with militants in Lebanon's largest Palestinian refugee camp Monday," the Associated Press reports. "Seven people were killed, witnesses and Palestinian officials said." As far as we know, this wanton killing of Palestinian Arabs met with complete silence from all those who denounce Israel every time it succeeds in killing a Hamas terrorist.


Here's an encouraging report, though, from the Jersalem Post:

quote: In a rare demonstration Tuesday, about 600 residents of northern Gaza's Beit Hanoun blocked a main road with trash cans, rocks and burning tires in a burst of anger at gunmen who have prompted Israeli incursions by firing rockets at Israeli targets. . . . "They claim they are heroes," said Mohammed Zaaneen, 30, a farmer, of the Palestiniain gunmen, as he carried rocks into the street. "They brought us only destruction and made us homeless. They used our farms, our houses and our children . . . to hide."

If the Palestinians were led by men like Mohammed Zaaneen, the "road map" might actually end up going somewhere. Incidentally, here's an astonishingly biased passage from an Associated Press report on that map:

quote: Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon insists that the Palestinians make the first move. He was to have discussed his objections with Bush this week, but canceled his trip after Sunday's bus bombing. The Palestinians have accepted the plan as is.

The road map actually provides that the Palestinians are obliged to cease all terrorism by the end of this month, so Sharon is entirely within his rights to insist that they "make the first move." And if the Palestinians fail to meet their first obligation under the plan, how can the AP claim they "have accepted the plan as is"?

	29-05-2003 03:16									#2
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In the paper this morning it said that Sharon had accepted it on the condition that the violence would end and that Arafat had not accepted it yet because he wants to cut out his PM from the decision making process.

	29-05-2003 03:17									#3
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I knew the Arafat regime was widely corrupt and devoid of all democratic legitimacy, but I didn't think he'd favor wanton murders on his population. This shows Arafat is yet another wanabee dictator who will do anything to keep the little power he has.

I still hope these guerillas have acted on their own initiative, and that they'll be harshly punished. If not, Arafat is worthy of political assassination

	29-05-2003 04:49									#4
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Unfortunately, these sort of behavior has been becoming more and more common from the PA. Arafat want's to keep hiis strangle hold on power so he's resorting to intemidation and violence.

The real question is why does only a few papers like the Wall Street Journal bother to bring these attacks up? Occationally the BBC will publish an article about them but most of the rest stay silent. I really think there is a built in bias. Can anyone come up with a better argument for why there's wall to wall coverage of every Israeli event but next to none when Arafat's gunman shot political decenters?

	29-05-2003 04:55									#5
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Sharon isn't helping the peace process at all, but if there's someone who is an even greater burden it is Arafat.

Give it up Yassir, you were a fabulous revolutionary, now you're no better than Castro, sacrificing the well being of your homeland (which I begin to think you really don't give a crap about) just for a blind and childish stranglehold of power.

Do your people a favor, get the hell out of Palestine.

	29-05-2003 06:10									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The real question is why does only a few papers like the Wall Street Journal bother to bring these attacks up?

The answer is simple : look at how heated this thread is. Nobody cares

	29-05-2003 06:20									#7
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Newsflash: Yassir Arafat and his buddies are murdering thugs. And in other breaking news, the sun rose this morning in the east for about the 1,643,589,900,000th day in a row.

	29-05-2003 06:22									#8
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I guess this issue just doesn't matter to most readers. So the next question becomes why do they get all fired up about Israel's actions if they don't care? I find it very funny that certain politically left of center people go absolutely postal on Israel for every little thing yet ignore much worse offense when the culprit is someone else. Why?

	29-05-2003 06:29									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I find it very funny that certain politically left of center people go absolutely postal on Israel for every little thing yet ignore much worse offense when the culprit is someone else. Why?

Because Israel is a usual imperialistic invading evil culprit in the leftist lore (the description isn't that false though, when you look at the colonies policy for example ), while the Palestinians are the usual victims. And leftists tend to love victims and to be late when realizing that victims are no better than culprits.

But they can change. At the beginning of the Yugoslavian war, the Serbs had much sympathy and forgiveness from the west because of the past massacres the Croatians have done during WW2. For a very long time, the weeniness about the Jews and the Holocaust was defended by the left too.

If Arafat continues to be a ruthless thug for long, the left will come to realize his true nature. We are already very aware that he is a corrupt and undemocratic leader, and that he is an obstacle to the peace process (even though the true devil remains Sharon in our lore). The days of praising the freedom hero are over.

	29-05-2003 06:31									#10
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This is just like the "Arab Countries Treat Palestianians Worse Than Israel" thread from a few days back.

I think the reason most people make more of a deal about Israel killing people is the fact that Israel is a western-style democracy and as such is held to a higher standard than either Islamic militants or foolish dictators. And I believe that was the primary argument given in the aforementioned thread. Of course, the primary counterargument for that is: "But they are engaged in a fight for their lives", which is a valid point. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I also don't think we should make overly wide accusations of bias against everyone because they see more of a problem with a democracy killing people than a dictatorship doing the same. Ahem.

I agree about what Oerdin said about that Zaaneen fellow, though. And it would be best for everyone if Arafat just up and skidaddled.

	29-05-2003 06:32									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I guess this issue just doesn't matter to most readers. So the next question becomes why do they get all fired up about Israel's actions if they don't care? I find it very funny that certain politically left of center people go absolutely postal on Israel for every little thing yet ignore much worse offense when the culprit is someone else. Why?

Another thing (beyond Spiffor's post) is that what Israel does is more spectacular and visible. Bulldozers, Merkavas, uniformed troops and border police. It's all nice and organized and official, while the **** pulled by the Palestinian Authority is more nebulous and has the outward appearance of disorganization. I think Israel is expected to be relatively civilized and functional, while most of the world has no such expectations of the Palestinian side.

	29-05-2003 06:33									#12
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Thanks Spiffor that anwser made sense. BTW the new Palestinian PM seems like a stand up guy. I just hope Arafat doesn't try to throw a monkey wrench into things just to prove he's still important.

Last edited by Oerdin on 29-05-2003 at 06:40

	29-05-2003 06:38									#13
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There's only two ways Arafat will skedaddle. One is old age or some other "natural causes." The other is if someone skedaddles his brains all over the nearest wall.

	29-05-2003 06:51									#14
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat There's only two ways Arafat will skedaddle. One is old age or some other "natural causes." The other is if someone skedaddles his brains all over the nearest wall.

I wonder if he could be arrested and tried for something in a way that would discredit him.

	29-05-2003 07:49									#15
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Since you have to get past his bodyguards and cronies, that pretty much means option two.

	29-05-2003 07:53									#16
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It's to bad Masaud can't just make sure that Arafat's private chopper develops a fatal mechanical problem at 5k feet.

Last edited by Oerdin on 29-05-2003 at 07:59

	29-05-2003 08:00									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It's to bad Masaud can't just make sure that Arafat's privit chopper develops a fatile mechanical problem at 5k feet.

Sure they can. Just aim the missile and shoot.

Well, ok, there might be more than a "mechanical problem", but I can't think of everything.

	29-05-2003 08:03									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If Arafat continues to be a ruthless thug for long, the left will come to realize his true nature. We are already very aware that he is a corrupt and undemocratic leader, and that he is an obstacle to the peace process (even though the true devil remains Sharon in our lore). The days of praising the freedom hero are over.

All lefties I know realize that Arafat is vile scum. Why most righties generalize on lefties thinking Arafat is some wonderful revolutionary hero today is beyond me... then again I come to expect such things sometimes.

	29-05-2003 08:04									#19
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I'm happy that some Pals aren't listening to Arafat...

But obviously there's stuff to be unhappy about too. We can only hope that their deaths aren't in vain, and that it will help other Pals realize that they need a better leader.

	29-05-2003 08:05									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It's to bad Masaud can't just make sure that Arafat's private chopper develops a fatal mechanical problem at 5k feet.

and do the same to Air Force One once they're at it...

	29-05-2003 09:47									#21
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This reminds me of a great quote from a Palestinian woman in exile. She'd been forced to leave the Middle East, not by the Israelis, but by the PA. Here we go;-

"There are those who cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And there are those who carry Allah in their heart."

	29-05-2003 09:50									#22
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I betcha the next war won't be in North Korea, or Syria, or Iran, or any of those places... it'll be in Palestine

	29-05-2003 10:43									#23
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Israel - State Action
Palestinian Gunmen/Terrorists/Suicide Bombings - Individuals

That's the difference

	29-05-2003 10:44									#24
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Bull.

	29-05-2003 10:51									#25
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It is state action when it is financed and supported by the Saudis, the Iranians, the ex-government of Iraq, the Syrians, and now a 'home rule' government of the Palestinians themselves. Only hypocrits would continue the vendetta against Israel that many leftists do.

They are not democracies? Oh, heaven and be-gezzus! People end up just as dead. And you know what? there is only one democrasy involved whose people would give a left arm for peace. However, every time they extend that arm, some fanatic for the PA takes a piece out of it.

	29-05-2003 10:54									#26
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quote: Originally posted by orange Israel - State Action Palestinian Gunmen/Terrorists/Suicide Bombings - Individuals That's the difference

This is Arafat, not some random terrorist.

	29-05-2003 11:43									#27
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither They are not democracies? Oh, heaven and be-gezzus! People end up just as dead. And you know what? there is only one democrasy involved whose people would give a left arm for peace. However, every time they extend that arm, some fanatic for the PA takes a piece out of it.

and what democracy might that be...?

	29-05-2003 17:50									#28
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quote: Thanks Spiffor that anwser made sense. BTW the new Palestinian PM seems like a stand up guy

You're kidding, right? Tell me you're kidding here. Mazen is a Holocaust "revisionist" for crying out loud.

	29-05-2003 17:57									#29
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Newsflash: Yassir Arafat and his buddies are murdering thugs. And in other breaking news, the sun rose this morning in the east for about the 1,643,589,900,000th day in a row.

Exactly. Maybe some of the Israel bashers would keep in mind what Israel is up against. I saw a disturbing story on "60 minutes" last night. Apparantly, not only are the suicide bombing women (between 17-24 usually) immortalized on posters, but the English speaking, Palestinian college students that were interviewed all said they would like to follow in the footsteps of their "heros". They interviewed other Palestinians that talked about how honorable the suicide bombers' cause and actions are. It's disgusting. I hope that the culture of the Palestinians really isn't as praising of this despicable murder.

	29-05-2003 18:34									#30
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There has been a war between Palestinian factions for years, after all, most attempts on Arafat life were carried out by Palestinians.

, if it were Israeli forces trying to get at militants from hamas and 7 people die, would Oerdin have said a thing? There is a certainy strange hypocrasy in that.

At some point the PLA will have to, unless they cut a deal with Hamas and Islamic Jihad, to crack down, and that will be bloody, since both groups have very loyal, and increasingly wide support. When that happens, there will be a lot of stories like this.

You know, Arafat must be some sort of superman..I mean, look just how much he can do! At seventy something, and he controls all events straight out of his office? How can the Israelis ever hope to match such an invincible power as this master evil genius!
The man has been sidelined for the most part. &es, the milittoia that did this was "loyal to Arafat". Does anyone here actually think he gave an order in this case? People are loyal to him because Palestinian society is split into many political groups, some of which will follow him. People give this guy inordenate amounts of attention: even infamy is attention of a sort.