30-05-2003 04:40									#31
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Oerdin: the article says that 2.300 people got arrested. do you mean that 2.300 protestors threw bottles at the Police and broke windows? if so I wouldnīt call this a demonstration but a riot. I donīt believe it was a riot. I reread the article and I didnīt find such things. what I found was this:

quote: "What price democracy?" Bobbie Stein from the National Lawyers Guild said Tuesday. "It's the cost of living in a free society."

heīs absolutely right on this.

quote: The biggest bite out of city coffers came from the Police Department, which reported spending $2 million to police the civil unrest, with most of the money paying for officer overtime.

so the largest part - if not everything - were the usual demonstration cost.

do you live in SF? Iīd like to know how many people demonstrated there.

	30-05-2003 04:43									#32
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Well oedo, if they are disturbing the peace or blocking off traffic and blocking off peoples lives, they deserve to get arrested.

Don't be deluded by your own biases... stupid people have the right to demonstrate their own arrogance. But that doesn't mean they can block off roads and cause problems.

	30-05-2003 04:47									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon How much did the war cost, O? Enough to provide health care to everyone in the United States three times over, I'll bet.

Altogather now...

"It ain't the Federal Guv'ment's job to pay for Healthcare!"

It's a state and city function.

	30-05-2003 04:48									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Fez stupid people have the right to demonstrate their own arrogance.

Cheers for the sig material.

	30-05-2003 04:50									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Well oedo, if they are disturbing the peace or blocking off traffic and blocking off peoples lives, they deserve to get arrested.

itīs in the nature of (larger) demonstrations that they block roads. itīs oftenly even the intend. demonstrators want to tell their opinions - also to those, who donīt participate and who donīt want to have anything to do with it. thatīs why they donīt go into the dark wood or any other empty place but into the inner city.
I know that many people - especially conservatives - donīt like this kind of making politics, but itīs just our constitutional right.

	30-05-2003 04:55									#36
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Oedo: If they mess with my life or that of any other civilian in the area.. the police should get over there with water guns.. and then tear gas and finally rubber bullets if it so required. If that is not enough call the national guard. Of course I don't have this power so if I saw demonstraters of your kind I would just give them the middle finger and a few swear words for causing me to be late to where ever I am going.

You don't have a right to interrupt to life of another individual trying to get to work.

	30-05-2003 05:00									#37
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Oedo: I live about 1.3 hours away from San Fransisco and the number of protesters was to many.

Plus, we're not just talking about the regular protest which organizers filled for a permit. We're talking about "activists" just randomly picking a busy street, chaining themselves in the street, while their friends unroll huge bangers with political slogons. Why do they do this? To get on TV because they are selfish people who don't care about anyone else.

If you want to be heard write an article for the paper or a letter to the editor, call in to a talk show or the local TV station, hold a lecture at the local college, but if you block emergency vehicle access then you are breaking the law and you should go to jail. It's that simple.

	30-05-2003 05:00									#38
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Fez: of course it makes a huge difference whether they block a fire escape, or a hospital or something like that, or whether theyīre just hanging around the street preventing that people get home in time so they donīt miss the beginning of Oprah Winfrey.
weīre talking about an important element of any democracy here.

	30-05-2003 05:03									#39
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They don't have the right to effectively shut down major portions of the city. People need to get to work.

	30-05-2003 05:06									#40
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Oerdin, sorry I need some sleep now. we recently had a long thread here, which was also about the freedom to assemble. Iīm still not sure, if you really need a permit for a demonstration (since we donīt need one in Germany). but since the freedom to assemble is written in the first ammendment of your constitution you can figure, that it is something important. and for a good reason as I think.

good night

	30-05-2003 05:08									#41
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They don't have to assemble IN THE STREETS.

	30-05-2003 05:09									#42
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quote: Originally posted by oedo Fez: of course it makes a huge difference whether they block a fire escape, or a hospital or something like that, or whether theyīre just hanging around the street preventing that people get home in time so they donīt miss the beginning of Oprah Winfrey. weīre talking about an important element of any democracy here.

We are talking about peoples lives. And I am not talking about Oprah Winfrey, I am talking about something that is called a job. *typical teenager voice* Now get real.

They DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO SHUT DOWN THE LIVES OF OTHERS. That is what was happening in Peru.. well... lets just say the army has sent itself out to clear everything.

It is called the well being of the people. And you peaceniks are just hurting this.

	30-05-2003 05:14									#43
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quote: Originally posted by oedo Fez: of course it makes a huge difference whether they block a fire escape, or a hospital or something like that, or whether theyīre just hanging around the street preventing that people get home in time so they donīt miss the beginning of Oprah Winfrey. weīre talking about an important element of any democracy here.

Let's talk about this a little shall we? Whiny-leftist protester Bob really doesn't like the war in Iraq/the IMF/Bio-Engineered crops/the Capitalist system/Multinational Corporations (take your pick) so he decides to get a bunch of his other whiny little protester friends out in the street to "help democracy"; they plan on doing this by chaining themselves in the middle of a free way thus blocking traffic.

It works. Whiny Bob and his whiny friends have totally snarled traffic and they now feel proud that they have "helped democracy", however, across town a thoughtless tenant accidently catches his apartment on fire. The thoughtless tenant decides to call the fire department so they can help him put out the fire only the fire department can't get there because whiny bob and his friends have blocked traffic. What's more Thoughtless Tenant's neighbor Grandma Jill has a heart attack after seeing her home in flames. Now, the fire department and the paramedics can't get to the scene because whiny bob's group is still "helping democracy".

Do you see now why we need orderly means of public demonstaration? Emergency services need to still be able to get where they need to go and it would be nice if everyone who doesn't care about your pet issue can still go about their day without being held hostage by whiny bob and his friends.

	30-05-2003 05:26									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Let's talk about this a little shall we? Whiny-leftist protester Bob really doesn't like the war in Iraq/the IMF/Bio-Engineered crops/the Capitalist system/Multinational Corporations (take your pick) so he decides to get a bunch of his other whiny little protester friends out in the street to "help democracy"; they plan on doing this by chaining themselves in the middle of a free way thus blocking traffic. It works. Whiny Bob and his whiny friends have totally snarled traffic and they now feel proud that they have "helped democracy", however, across town a thoughtless tenant accidently catches his apartment on fire. The thoughtless tenant decides to call the fire department so they can help him put out the fire only the fire department can't get there because whiny bob and his friends have blocked traffic. What's more Thoughtless Tenant's neighbor Grandma Jill has a heart attack after seeing her home in flames. Now, the fire department and the paramedics can't get to the scene because whiny bob's group is still "helping democracy". Do you see now why we need orderly means of public demonstaration? Emergency services need to still be able to get where they need to go and it would be nice if everyone who doesn't care about your pet issue can still go about their day without being held hostage by whiny bob and his friends.

Then bob and his friends should be arrested.

Oerdin making sweeping generalizations....This is new....

	30-05-2003 05:27									#45
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It isn't a sweeping generalization.

	30-05-2003 05:30									#46
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker It isn't a sweeping generalization.

Yeah, every anti-war protestor is obviously one who would favor their signs over human lives. Theyre all murderers!!! Of course

Ya know, I could mention how the civilian toll in Iraq is approaching that of Sep11, and how advocatin such a war is almost like advocating a Sep11 in a different country, and how WRONG that is......And then I could make a sweeping generalization on how evil all right-wingers are and call them murderers and then I could get one of my communist friends to come and tell you I'm right.

But I know better.

	30-05-2003 05:36									#47
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Tass: There was no generalization and certainly not any over generalization. The senerio I went over is the exact reason why it is illegal to have protests without a permit and/or to block a public road way.

Many of these people in San Fransisco choice to ignore that law and that is why they were arrested. They felt getting their banner on TV was so important that they willingly & knowningly put the general public at risk to do it. That's not only illegal that is immoral.

There was a designated protesting area. Why didn't they go there? Anwser: because that wouldn't have generated the media coverage these selfish people wanted so they risked peoples' lives.

	30-05-2003 05:37									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Ya know, I could mention how the civilian toll in Iraq is approaching that of Sep11, and how advocatin such a war is almost like advocating a Sep11 in a different country, and how WRONG that is......And then I could make a sweeping generalization on how evil all right-wingers are and call them murderers and then I could get one of my communist friends to come and tell you I'm right.

Well that is bullcrap. Face it.. if you didn't support the war, you would like to see Saddam continue on with his atrocities.

A photo for my friend tassy:





More: http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html

What the hell were you peaceniks thinking?

	30-05-2003 05:38									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Tass: There was no generalization and certainly not any over generalization. The senerio I went over

I'm not talking about that I'm talking about other comments such as: Activists=people who cost the city lots of money for no reason.

	30-05-2003 05:50									#50
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Fez, Oerdin: since your concern is also my concern I had to get up one more time to propose a bet:
I say: the next three times you donīt get to work(or a destination of your choice) in time because the streets are blocked, the reason will be a simple tailback and not a demonstration. do you accept?

but now, good night, really.

	30-05-2003 05:53									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon How much did the war cost, O? Enough to provide health care to everyone in the United States three times over, I'll bet.

Game, set, match - Leftists.

	30-05-2003 05:58									#52
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quote: Game, set, match - Leftists.

Not even close. Read my response to this. The amount paid for the war wouldn't ever be used for what SF was going to be using the lost money for. SF doesn't care what wars the federal government goes on, that money isn't going to go to them anyway. Yet the money for police officers' overtimes does indeed go from other projects.

	30-05-2003 06:05									#53
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If it weren't for the war, no protests would be necessary. It's still the fault of the war.y

	30-05-2003 06:07									#54
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Yeah, and if it wasn't for capitalism than no anti-globalization protests would be necessary so capitalism is what caused the loss of money in DC every few years and the loss of money in Seattle a few years back.

Suuuuuure.

	30-05-2003 06:08									#55
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quote: Originally posted by orange If it weren't for the war, no protests would be necessary. It's still the fault of the war.y

Are you not responsible for your actions?

	30-05-2003 06:08									#56
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Obviously not, DD... they're leftists!

	30-05-2003 08:09									#57
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Leftist rightist split?



Oedo: They have a right to peaceably assemble. These 'demonstrations' do not qualify to be demonstrations because of the violence initiated by the protesters.

Agathon: I agree, the money spent on the war should have been used elsewhere, for healthcare etc. The issue of maintaining an army does not come up because it costs more money to fight a war in the first place. Has the war in Iraq justified the costs? No.

However, it makes no sense to pin the costs of the protest on the war. Regardless of the situation, the protesters should be able to control themselves. After all aren't they supposed to be 'anti-war' demonstrators?

	30-05-2003 09:41									#59
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Fez the world is not so black and white as that. Being for peace does not imply support for anything but peace. Most leftists agree that Saddam Hussein was a bad person. They simply felt that there were ways other than war to deal with him.

Doesn't much matter now, though, so I just hope the Us does a good job of putting the country back together. Right now, though, Iraq is in worse condition than it was under Saddam. Note that I do not approve of Saddam. I am merely saying that his ironfisted rule was at least stable, whereas the anarchy there now is not in the least bit. There is more starvation now, more crime now, more bad **** all over the place right now.

Hopefully that will change. And I still wish that the US could have killed fewer people. This was supposed to be part of the War on Terrorism. But America killed more people than the terrorists have. And most of the people killed were press-ganged soldiers that didn't want to be there.

As far as the actual debate here goes, stupid leftist protesters that cause disruptions do not invalidate the arguments against the war. They merely point out that some leftist protesters are stupid and disruptive.

And a little fact to consider. The United States now spends more on defense than every other country in the world combined.

And it's spending more on the war and reconstruction. And it's got a huge tax break coming up. And the economy ain't lookin' too grand.

The US government could certainly be doing a lot better to help its own people. This does not mean it doesn't do a good job, though. I'm not against America. Ugh...

	30-05-2003 10:02									#60
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I would just like to point out that, having seen the war protests firsthand, the proportion of "violent" or "hateful" people was tiny, and seems to be blown out of proportion by the anti-demonstrators in this thread. Most protests that people feel strongly about contain a few idiots who don't understand the meaning of nonviolent; that's hardly an indictment of the war protesters or proof that they should not be heeded.