15-07-2003 14:58									#31
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OK. I didn't think of that. Perhaps all those reg warriors will have a purpose.

Against these guys, it should not be hard to get them to DW. Should we do that? Would we be willing to DW while in their territory without an ROP?

	15-07-2003 15:10									#32
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There's some empty spaces between the border cities and their Capitol, if we make it past the border cities without them declaring war, then we can move just outside of their border's, next to the Iron, then declare war. Or better yet, move onto their Iron and decalre war then by pillaging it!

This plan actually would work even if we sent NM's in for the job. Would they allow us to remain on their Iron without declaring war? I think they would not. They would do everything to get us off, it is their life's blood!

There are so many options!

	15-07-2003 18:34									#33
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Ah-ha! Reg. Warriors will spearhead our offensive, I knew it!

Seriously now, is the short boost in Happiness really worth delaying our attack plans by a few turns? Although CDG does have a poor economy, they can probably still muster something annoying with 3-5 turns advance warning.

Perhaps we could send our main stack in at the same time as the Reg. Warrior stack, so that both would be accessible to them simultaneously. They then have an option: take out our annoying Warriors who are ripping up their countryside, or focus on our stack of doom. Whatever they choose, we win. This, of course, depends on our specific attack plans: if we're going to strike at their two borders towns first, this plan would not work.

This may not be necessary, though. Because we're using slow-movers exclusively, CDG will have the "first strike" advantage against us. They might decide to trim our stack with a few Immortals before we ever lay a finger on them, declaring war and giving us the Happiness.


Dominae

	17-07-2003 08:40									#34
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Their is no WW in MP.

	17-07-2003 08:41									#35
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That wasn't the case with 1.14, you are right, however with the newest patch, it is, we just confirmed it was added back into patch 1.21f

It kind of sucks. I tested out a PBEM game yesterday and sure enough had riots due to "GIVE PEACE A CHANCE!"

So it is a factor we are going to have to deal with

	17-07-2003 10:08									#36
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Yes, Dom, those are my thoughts. If they let our Warriors by, fine, we just pillage with them. If they don't we use Swords of the weakened Immortals.

BTW, we are sending a settler in our stack to "steal" the Iron away!

	17-07-2003 10:50									#37
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Did some testing of my own- no WW in 'active' MP, just in PBEM. How lame is that?

	17-07-2003 11:01									#38
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It's an exploit in MP. I'm not sure if it was supposed to return to PBEM.

	17-07-2003 17:07									#39
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It's no exploit- the removal of War Weariness in MP was done with full intent and balance, which is why I'm really confused about it getting reinstated in PBEM. Reason they took out war weariness is that a human - even one who was 1000s of game-miles away - who sees you in a Republic or Democracy only has to declare war and go back to his/her business and ignore you.... oh yes, and forever refuse any form of peace offering.

This lil' manuever would completely destroy any reasonable use of those two governments. Wonder why they changed it back for PBEM? They think those games are more civilized or something?

	17-07-2003 17:29									#40
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This means that CDG or any other civ that doesn't like us can use this trick on us as soon as they see we're in Republic.

	17-07-2003 19:16									#41
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster This means that CDG or any other civ that doesn't like us can use this trick on us as soon as they see we're in Republic.

They won't live long enough for that to matter.

	17-07-2003 20:23									#42
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Agreed. Unlike normal MP games, anyone who declares war on us here will have to mean it - particularly since we're the "Big dog" around the block right now. Although they're not showing it at the moment, I imagine at least CFC -if not also GCA- understands that cooperation is key to winning; at least until global communication is realized.

	17-07-2003 21:50									#43
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I mean - imagine the Germans contacting us, realising we're in Republic, declaring war on us while they're at the other side of the world ..? That would spoil the party...

	17-07-2003 23:05									#44
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Not that we want to tip our hand that we're heading to Republic, but is it worth pursuing a UN resolution prohibiting starting a war for the sole intention of messing up republics and democracies?

	18-07-2003 08:25									#45
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Actually, when they declare war, we get a happy bonus. It takes offensive action or defensive action with losses to start having the WW pile up.

What happens though is that we fight a war, it is long and brutal. We pile up WW. The civ we fight is close to packing it in. A civ way over there grants them a 2 dog burgh. We wipe the civ out from our continent, but they refuse peace to spite us. We never get out of the WW negatives. Unless...

We have an ally nearby declare war on us and then make peace without shots being fired. That should reduce the WW. Rinse and repeat often enough, and we could offset the negatives, if we have a civ willing to help us out.

This needs to be tested more. But the basic principle of WW are, IIRC:

1. Losing units in our own territory (cities very bad).
2. Launching offensive action.

3. Being declared war on gives a happiness bonus until you make peace with that civ who declared war.
4. making peace with a power you are at war with will reduce the current WW level.

I have played entire games as a Republic at war by being careful who I made peace with and when. Whenever WW started to creep up, I made peace with one devastated power. WW would decrease and I would happily pummel away at the current target.

	18-07-2003 08:32									#46
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Actually, when they declare war, we get a happy bonus. It takes offensive action or defensive action with losses to start having the WW pile up. What happens though is that we fight a war, it is long and brutal. We pile up WW. The civ we fight is close to packing it in. A civ way over there grants them a 2 dog burgh. We wipe the civ out from our continent, but they refuse peace to spite us. We never get out of the WW negatives. Unless... We have an ally nearby declare war on us and then make peace without shots being fired. That should reduce the WW. Rinse and repeat often enough, and we could offset the negatives, if we have a civ willing to help us out. This needs to be tested more. But the basic principle of WW are, IIRC: 1. Losing units in our own territory (cities very bad). 2. Launching offensive action. 3. Being declared war on gives a happiness bonus until you make peace with that civ who declared war. 4. making peace with a power you are at war with will reduce the current WW level. I have played entire games as a Republic at war by being careful who I made peace with and when. Whenever WW started to creep up, I made peace with one devastated power. WW would decrease and I would happily pummel away at the current target.

I probably worded it poorly, but what I meant for my post above was to try and avoid the spiteful tactics (I could see CDG doing it once we start our annihilation quest...if they were able to get someone to help them).

I know the affects of war weariness and "reverse war weariness" from plenty of SP games, but in those games the AI will always give you peace after a while because it's programmed to do so. Humans aren't.

	18-07-2003 09:07									#47
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nye - I am unsure of ww caused by losing units in your own territory, but I am certain it is caused by offensive action and by even just having units in your enemies' territory. I have seen some strat reports on WW. I will go and look about for more.