30-05-2003 20:19									#31
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yeah, he does sound like quite the jerk!

	30-05-2003 20:20									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Spiffor, that's why liberal men join such groups, they figure they'll get laid. In fact, what they didn't figure on is that those women are all lesbians. So, they start bopping each other, and that's why you have so many gay liberals.

	30-05-2003 20:21									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ned This is just more of "for every action there is a reaction." What disturbs me about the "report" is the recommendation that free speech be turned into a hate crime. Has Canada nothing equivalent to the 1st Amendment in its constitution?

Canadians have this strange ideal that just as you can slander an individual, you can also slander a group.

One of the basic criteria of slander is did the statements wrongly reduce a person's standing within a community. If someone says Chinese are evil that could wrongly affect me.

	30-05-2003 20:22									#34
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quote: Of course there is nothing wrong with the things you mention. But now that women have achieved at least relative equality or better, the movement has become nothing more than a means for them to achieve more power, or matriarcal oppression to use their syntax.

So when 'relative' equality is achieved (but not 'true' equality) then groups should simply wither away? Are you in favor of ending the NAACP then? After all minorities have achieved 'relative' equality. More of them are represented in the Fortune 500 CEOs and in the hall of Congress than women are.

quote: If you believe the feminism of today is genuinely trying to make the world a better place, rather than just gain more power, then I suggest you get in touch with reality.

I AM in touch with reality. You, OTOH, are not. How many feminists do you know? I know plenty, I dated one. They don't want to be better than men, they simply want more equal representation in Congress and in buisnesses. They think it is a shame that while 50% of the people are women, only 9 Senators are of that gender (~10% of that body). Instead of making generalizations about people you know nothing about, why don't you talk to a few feminists... and I don't mean NOW, I mean ordinary normal mainstream feminists.

	30-05-2003 20:24									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Spiffor, that's why liberal men join such groups, they figure they'll get laid. In fact, what they didn't figure on is that those women are all lesbians. So, they start bopping each other, and that's why you have so many gay liberals.

You are kidding, right?

And as Spiff said, the feminist movement is still necessary because while women are definetely closer to equality than they ever have been, they're not there yet. As always there are etremists, but they are not everyone.

It's also true that women do have it better in some situations. The area of divorce is certainly one of those places where women have the advantage.

	30-05-2003 20:24									#36
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Why is everything taken to such ridiculous extremes in North America.

Chill out, have a cup of tea. Watch some cricket.

	30-05-2003 20:24									#37
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Clare Short is the perfect example of why there are so few female politicians.

	30-05-2003 20:25									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Spiffor, that's why liberal men join such groups, they figure they'll get laid. In fact, what they didn't figure on is that those women are all lesbians. So, they start bopping each other, and that's why you have so many gay liberals.

Oh, you misguided fool.

Women's groups are a great place to meet some incredible women who are straight or bi. They're intelligent, they're beautiful, they're great conversationalists, they're independent, They're amazing.

You don't know what you are missing.

	30-05-2003 20:25									#39
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quote: I do think it is a little disturbing when men are still expected to behave like "gentlemen" around "women" when they wish for this "equality". I always get looked at weird if I don't hold a door open for a women, give her my seat on the BART, or make direct eye contact at all times when working with them

Well, the fem that I know doesn't really like that. She always wants to pay half the bill at a restaurant (even when we were dating), half of the time opened the door for me, etc. So there are those that actually want equality.

	30-05-2003 20:27									#40
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	30-05-2003 20:31									#41
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"They're intelligent, they're beautiful, they're great conversationalists, they're independent, They're amazing."

I live in Oregon, I've met plenty, they're trash.

	30-05-2003 20:33									#42
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Are we talking about Furbys?

	30-05-2003 20:35									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer "They're intelligent, they're beautiful, they're great conversationalists, they're independent, They're amazing." I live in Oregon, I've met plenty, they're trash.

That's because of the "Oregon" attribute, not because of the "feminist" attribute

	30-05-2003 20:36									#44
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quote: [SIZE=1] So when 'relative' equality is achieved (but not 'true' equality) then groups should simply wither away? Are you in favor of ending the NAACP then?

I actually think women have achieved superiority, rather than just equality, but I used the "relative equality" thing to compromise. Anyway, I think the NAACP and similar groups serve a good purpose because African-Americans still are in a rough situation, and have not achieved equality with whites . Which is the big difference between such groups and feminism, they seek to achieve equality, feminism has already acheived at least equality and now seek more power. Some of the rhetoric that femenists use really is disturbingly similar to that of KKK. It is truly scary that they are still somewhat socially acceptable.

quote: I AM in touch with reality. You, OTOH, are not. How many feminists do you know? I know plenty, I dated one. They don't want to be better than men, they simply want more equal representation in Congress and in buisnesses. They think it is a shame that while 50% of the people are women, only 9 Senators are of that gender (~10% of that body). Instead of making generalizations about people you know nothing about, why don't you talk to a few feminists... and I don't mean NOW, I mean ordinary normal mainstream feminists.

Sure, I've dated one too. I know some. I've also read lots of feminist literature. I'm not just talking out my ass here, I promise you. It comes down to this I guess, as a commie, I can't support a movement that is so divisive and bigoted in good conscience. I hope you take a closer look at what you are supporting in the future, old friend.

	30-05-2003 20:38									#45
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quote: - the woman's image is still widely associated with sex. Sexist ads still are galore, and are way more sexist towards women than towards men (same for porn, in which women manage to be even more disgraced than men).

Ever walk by an Ambercombri and Fich (spelling?/name?) store and see the larger than life naked man right as you walk in the door. I think men and women are used equally in sexual ads or ads with sexual conotations... I.e. the Miller Lite commercial with the two hot chicks fighting... Have you seen the male rebutal for that? Or how about the ones that target the gay males?

Since womens sufferage, and more so since the early sixties companies have begun targeting women for products using sexual undertones... Mainly because they got out of the house, and started working.

quote: - Women still do much more work at home than men. The trend of more household-equality, after being a fashion for some time, has become extremely slow. Feminists have to mobilize both men and women to understand equality.

You obviously don't live in my house: a) because my wife doesn't do anything around the house and b) because I never see you there. Granted that was the norm, but IMO it has changed. In my field, area, and from my experiences women are just as likely to work as men, outside of the house. Also, a lot of women still chose to stay home once they have kids. Call it instinct, call it generations of ideals being breeded into us, but I know that my wife wants me to get a good enough job so that she can stay at home with the kids until they are old enough for her to return...

When do we stop reminding ppl of an equality that already exists?

	30-05-2003 20:39									#46
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I think the woman who wrote that report could safely inc;lude many posts in this thread as evidence.

Come on people, so of the comments are trully absurd.

There is a small minority of feminists who are very miliutant and radical, and who do seem to hate men. They are just that, a small minority, who get noticed because like all extremists, they are highly vocal.

If boys are falling behind is because we do have a society in change and men have been slow to try to either try to chnnel change in ways they think will be better for men and boys (while not undermining gains for womne), or adapting.

(just for a touch of irony): So all of you "men" *****ing about feminists: stop your womanly hysteria and grypping and act LIKE MEN!

	30-05-2003 20:40									#47
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Spiffor!

	30-05-2003 20:40									#48
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quote: I actually think women have achieved superiority, rather than just equality

God, you are off your rocker!

You can say this ONLY after the first female President is elected.

quote: Anyway, I think the NAACP and similar groups serve a good purpose because African-Americans still are in a rough situation, and have not achieved equality with whites

Women are in a rough situation and have not achieved equality with men. When female CEOs in the Fortune 500 and represenatation in Congress is about 30%, then maybe I'll say they have achieved somewhat of equality (though not full). Now? Yeah, right.

quote: I hope you take a closer look at what you are supporting in the future, old friend.

Yeah, I'm supporting equality. So should you.

Btw, as a troll 0.1/10

	30-05-2003 20:45									#49
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Japher :
I was talking about at-home work in general, NOT about the likeliness of being employed or not. In couples where both parents are working, the woman generally does the huge majority of the housefold-work.

	30-05-2003 20:46									#50
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Well, you ladies have fun flushing western civilization. I worked all night, manly work done by manly He men, and I'm nodding off.

	30-05-2003 20:48									#51
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I think the woman who wrote that report could safely inc;lude many posts in this thread as evidence. Come on people, so of the comments are trully absurd. There is a small minority of feminists who are very miliutant and radical, and who do seem to hate men. They are just that, a small minority, who get noticed because like all extremists, they are highly vocal.

I don't think that you are seeing the larger problem that movements such as feminism, the KKK, and so on present. They divide the world into two groups. It is essential that we as a species overcome the "us and them" mentality that these groups present. As a socialist and proponent of liberalism, I cannot stand for it.

quote: If boys are falling behind is because we do have a society in change and men have been slow to try to either try to chnnel change in ways they think will be better for men and boys (while not undermining gains for womne), or adapting.

So I guess we should say "tough luck" to minorities too? After all, they shouldn't have "undermine" the education of whites, they should "adapt" and tough it out. Come on Ge, you're better than this.

quote: (just for a touch of irony): So all of you "men" *****ing about feminists: stop your womanly hysteria and grypping and act LIKE MEN!

So, we should ignore all social injustice and "act like men"? I know you're being facetious with the last one, but I'm not sure you realize what you're really saying here.

	30-05-2003 20:50									#52
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Spiffor: I know. We are a working couple, no kids though, and I do most of the work at home. I do most of the cooking and cleaning. Mainly because her job is overworking her. Maybe I am a rare case, but my boss is the same way too, and he has two kids.

Maybe we just married strong willed women... I like 'em that way.

	30-05-2003 20:51									#53
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quote: They divide the world into two groups. It is essential that we as a species overcome the "us and them" mentality that these groups present.

You mean like socialists and their 'class' bullshit?

	30-05-2003 20:51									#54
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I don't think that you are seeing the larger problem that movements such as feminism, the KKK, and so on present. They divide the world into two groups. It is essential that we as a species overcome the "us and them" mentality that these groups present.

You seem very happy to divide the world into a series of groups. You know, such as "feminists", "the KKK", "communists".

As a socialist and proponent of liberalism you should really stop doing that.

/edit: damn, Imran beat me to it!

	30-05-2003 20:51									#55
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In the military, aren't women less likely to be put on the front line?

	30-05-2003 20:52									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer "They're intelligent, they're beautiful, they're great conversationalists, they're independent, They're amazing." I live in Oregon, I've met plenty, they're trash.

Yet another reason not to live in Oregon, even if there are some mighty fine mircobreweries there.

Man cannot live by beer alone, although dammit sometimes we try.

	30-05-2003 20:52									#57
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quote: Maybe we just married strong willed women... I like 'em that way.

SEEE, you do like feminists .

	30-05-2003 20:55									#58
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet You seem very happy to divide the world into a series of groups. You know, such as "feminists", "the KKK", "communists". As a socialist and proponent of liberalism you should really stop doing that. /edit: damn, Imran beat me to it!

Wow, I've been quoted. this is a first.


Anyway, I'm not sure what you mean. I am faulted for calling these groups the names they have given themselves?

	30-05-2003 20:57									#59
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I don't think that you are seeing the larger problem that movements such as feminism, the KKK, and so on present. They divide the world into two groups. It is essential that we as a species overcome the "us and them" mentality that these groups present. As a socialist and proponent of liberalism, I cannot stand for it.

As a proponent of communism and socialism, you should be completely in support of the vast moajority of the feminist agenda, which aims to make women equal to men, as part of making all humans equal in thier rights and opportunities.

quote: So I guess we should say "tough luck" to minorities too? After all, they shouldn't have "undermine" the education of whites, they should "adapt" and tough it out. Come on Ge, you're better than this.

Feminists do not undermine the education of men. Men undermine the education of men, by expecting boys to succeed athletically without giving much damn to their academic success. Men undermine the education of boys by not participating in it, by not fulfilling their duties as fathers and as mentors for a new generation of men. Your comparisons are not correct.

quote: So, we should ignore all social injustice and "act like men"? I know you're being facetious with the last one, but I'm not sure you realize what you're really saying here.

I do realize what I am saying: you gripe about feminism, wel, what the hell does masculism mean? what would be the aim? And what would be the means? The only ones that sound like radcial feminists here arethe anti-feminists, since the same sort of demonization tactics are in use.

	30-05-2003 20:59									#60
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I do realize what I am saying: you gripe about feminism, wel, what the hell does masculism mean? what would be the aim? And what would be the means? The only ones that sound like radcial feminists here arethe anti-feminists, since the same sort of demonization tactics are in use.

Well don't worry, I don't support masculinism either. Why not just support socialism and gain equality for EVERYONE, regardless of race, gender, creed, etc.