30-05-2003 21:00									#61
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I'm a strong willed man, but that doesn't make me masculinits (whatever), the same way my wife being strong willed doesn't make her a feminist.

(Who sayed I like her anyway? I just needed a date for my wedding.)

I am not gripping about the underminding of the white male, but I do gripe about that groups that continue to push for equality when there already is equality, and in doing so undermind personal freedoms and the boundaries of a "good cause".

By the way, in the military, is it less likely that a woman would be sent to the frontline?

The NAACP, IMO, has outlived is usefulness. They should turn into a scholarship/mentoring program (so that we can eliminate the AA) and many of their leaders should be given spots in ALU or any other department that oversees fair and/or equal opportunity programs. As it stands, they, like the feminist, are just a bunch of whinniners stumbling around in the darkness looking for some cause to keep them fighting... all the while coming of as racists, bigots, and sexists...

See, they're all just like me... hows that for equality?

	30-05-2003 21:06									#62
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quote: I do gripe about that groups that continue to push for equality when there already is equality

What equality? Has their been a female President I don't know about (don't say Hillary either )?

What about represenatives in Congress? 10% represenation for a 50% population. 1 female CEO in the Fortune 500. What equality?

	30-05-2003 21:08									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I live in Oregon, I've met plenty, they're trash.

Yeah, they won't get their husbands beer on demand. *****es don't know their rightful place.

	30-05-2003 21:11									#64
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Worst of all, feminism is a movement that divides humanity into seperate groups.

What part of "women should be treated as equal" don't you believe?

	30-05-2003 21:12									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Maybe we just married strong willed women... I like 'em that way.

damn right. I've gone out with quiet, weak-willed women. Boring.

I love women who are confident and independent. They're the ones that the will come up to you and say "I'm horny" and then take control and rip off your clothes. Ohh baby. And at the same time, they have the confidence to let the man take control, to be submissive. And the best of all is when we're both in sync.

	30-05-2003 21:13									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I do gripe about that groups that continue to push for equality when there already is equality What equality? Has their been a female President I don't know about (don't say Hillary either )? What about represenatives in Congress? 10% represenation for a 50% population. 1 female CEO in the Fortune 500. What equality?

Preach it, brother Imran.

Same could also be said for the NAACP - when you have stuff (not so long ago, either) like the tape of Texaco execs joking about how when you shake the bag, all the black jellybeans end up at the bottom, you still have problems.

Even if you have a small minority of knuckledraggers, if they're in positions of authority where they can discriminate, you've got problems.

	30-05-2003 21:14									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui What about represenatives in Congress? 10% represenation for a 50% population. 1 female CEO in the Fortune 500. What equality?

Now on this I disagree Imran. To me, the most important equality is that of opportunity, not result. I don;t think then one can measure equality by outcomes in such thing as congress. (one can point to increasingly sucessful womne in the judical branch, and in the cabinet, plus there is Pelosi in congress) After all,, for example, there has been only one catholic president, yet catholics ar the biggest single religious faction in the US: are we saying they are unequal?

I think equality should be judged by the opportunities available at the outset, and by the ability to advance. I think most of the barriers towards getting a woman in the white house have been removed. What is left is prejudice (of both men and women), which must be tackled in a differen way. After all, Pakistan had a womna leader, na d that says nothing about the position of Pakistani women v men.

	30-05-2003 21:14									#68
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Imran: Oh, I see, your one of those equal success types who don't really understand what equal opportunity means... I can't help it if women aren't rising to the same stature of men, and would rather stay at home and nuture their husbands, children, and home. The only reason Hilary is as "great" of a political "leader" as she is is because her daughter is off and on her own, and husband ain't worth anyones time...

Men, are more "successful" at getting these positions, not because they are handed them on a silver platter, but because they are more willing to neglect all other responsibilities in their lives, and become workaholics... Something not too many women are good at.

Another thing, what are the age ranges of the rest of these fortune 500 presidents (did you bother to look at the board of directors of these companies, I know mine has several women on it), same with the US presidents... Why hasen't a women even vied for the presidency?

	30-05-2003 21:16									#69
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quote: They're the ones that the will come up to you and say "I'm horny" and then take control and rip off your clothes. Ohh baby.

And I thought this was supposed to be a family friendly site!

	30-05-2003 21:17									#70
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quote: Yeah, they won't get their husbands beer on demand. *****es don't know their rightful place

Damn Skippy. MtG, say that to my wife and WHAMO!

She told me long ago that if I wasn't able to get my own beer then I wasn't allowed to have it. Made sense when she said. Kind-of suked those first 5 or 6 times when you wake up on the kitchen floor, halfway between your chair and the fridge

	30-05-2003 21:19									#71
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quote: To me, the most important equality is that of opportunity, not result.

But the stunning disparity in result seems to indicate a lack of the equality of oppertunity, wouldn't you say? Showing that perhaps there IS a glass ceiling in most businesses and that a lot of voters may not vote for a woman simply because she is one (at the subconscious level). This is the same reason that aggressive men are lauded, but aggressive women are called *****. It's all about a double standard that needs to be changed, and is being changed slowly... but feminism is needed to change it all the way.

	30-05-2003 21:27									#72
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quote: Men, are more "successful" at getting these positions, not because they are handed them on a silver platter, but because they are more willing to neglect all other responsibilities in their lives, and become workaholics... Something not too many women are good at.

What the hell is this supposed to mean? Do you have some empirical evidence that supports the notion that women are somehow less willing/able to make the same sacrifices in moving up in the world?

At any rate, modern feminism isn't a doctrine of us vs. them. Real feminist groups address the entire spectrum of womanhood in modern society. It's not just about jobs and equality.

	30-05-2003 21:29									#73
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As much as it may pain me to be agreeing with Japher( ):

I am not one who think men and womne are totally the same, with al the differences being gender based. there are some basic differences, and the sought out results can change with this. Obviosuly no one has done a study of this (too politically charged), but I would start by saying that I do not think as many women as men have as thier greatest ambition to rule.

I agree that there are still plenty of sexist ideas, just as there are racist ideas, but changing these is bound to be slow without radical action, the sort of radical action not friendly to democracy. To me, removing the more obvious forms of descrimination, and punishing outright descrimination is the way to go, and in that we have succeeded greatly.

	30-05-2003 21:30									#74
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider It comes down to this I guess, as a commie, I can't support a movement that is so divisive and bigoted in good conscience.

The VAST majority of communists are feminists in word, if not in deed. Like being a Xian commie, being an openly anti-feminist commie puts you on the lunitic fringe of the lunitic fringe.

So, how do women have superiority? Do women control the government? Do women control most of our corporations? Do they control a significant minority of our corporations? Or do they control a tiny handful of corporations? Do women control higher education? Do they represent a majority of college professors? Do they get equal pay even when accounting for taking time off to have children? Do they only have to do half the household chores? Are they disproportionately more likely to be in poverty than men? Do men suffer a disproportionate amount of physical abuse? Are men more likely to be murdered by their spouses than vice versa? Is the number one cause of death of men with pregnant wives murder? Are men told they need to be anorexic to be beautiful? Are they told they have to be blonde to be attractive? Are they told they have to have implants put into their body to be attractive? Are men more likely to be patronized when expressing their opinions? Are aggressive men likely to be referred to as "b*tches?" Do advertisments frequently show men in images of sexual subservience? When was the last time you saw a woman on tv (or intimating) talking about how great it would be to have sex with to male twins or even just multiple partners?

Gosh, doing better in school and more frequently getting the kids in divorce really make up for all of the above.

	30-05-2003 21:33									#75
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Jeez Che... that was a HELL of a rant!

	30-05-2003 21:36									#76
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good post che.

but, i hate hate crimes, as a principle. we've had this debate so i'll let it die there.

	30-05-2003 21:40									#77
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Are men more likely to be patronized when expressing their opinions?

Of course they aren't che, and may I say that was a very nice little speech you just gave. Really cute. Now why don't you just rest your pretty head for a while - that must have really tired you out.



(good post )

	30-05-2003 21:42									#78
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Do any of you remember blackice? He was the main Canuck here who had men's rights as his big issues. Now Imran is certainly right that women have yet to be able to breach the highest levels of government, but blackice did have certain areas of concern where perhaps the pendulum swung the other way. They are if I recall:

1) The family court/divorce court system is unfair to men. Men have the odds stacked against them here and most times the woman will end up with the children and get a disproportinate amount of the property

2) Men are too easily made the victim of false criminal complaints such as sexual harrasment, spousal abuse, and rape. While no doubt serous problems when they do happen, women have been able to use false allegations of these at men who they want to get at, and too often false complaints of these things are believed.

3) Spousal abuse from the female partner directed against the male partner is ignored and trivialized by society. Many times the victim in this case cannot gain police intervention to help him. Furthermore, if a man's partner becomes violent against him, he is impeded from defending himself physically because then he will likely be facing spousal abuse charges where the femal partner will not.

4. The educational system is biased against male students. It teaches more to girl's learning styles, and treats boys harshly for well, being boys. As a result, female performence in academia has far exceeded male performance.

5. The movement known as political correctness has gone out of hand, limiting what men can do and say. An example of this would be a man who was forced to remove a picture of his wife in a swimsuit on his desk because it offended female colleauges. Men who violate this risk reprimand, sensitivity training, or even sexual harrasment charges.

6. Cultural concerns, probably not as important as the others. While we have seen a dramatic increase in the rights of women, responsibilites have not kept up with them. Men are still expected to pick up the check on dates, hold the door open, give up their seats for women, take care of physical labor for females, etc. So while many of the restrictions on female actions that accompanied the Victorian Era view of women have gone away, the responsibilites of men towards women have not.

	30-05-2003 21:43									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Jeez Che... that was a HELL of a rant!

Anti-feminism really irritates me. Yes, some feminism is really whacky stuff, but we should condemn all of feminism for the ideas of a few only as much as we should condemn all Christians for the Branch Davidians, the Crusades, the Inquisistion, all Muslims for 9/11, all communists for Stalin, etc. McKinnon and Dworkin are minor giants, and have rather passed by by this generation of feminists.

Among the issues today's feminism is concerned with are: the conditions of sex workers, with the fun of sex and pornography, with not taking sh*t from anyone for being a woman. Today's feminism is more playful, more sexual, and a damned site more egalitarian than 2nd wave feminism.

	30-05-2003 21:43									#80
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quote: Do you have some empirical evidence that supports the notion that women are somehow less willing/able to make the same sacrifices in moving up in the world?

Do have emperical evidence of the contrary? No! It is impossible to take such a poll or make such an account. Yet, from what I've seen of women who do make it to positions of power they have made the same sacrifices as the men who have made it to that position. No family (or a really Sh!ty one), no home life, no realtionship (maybe a fling on the side), and no real life to speak of outside of work. From what I have seen of most women is that they want a family, home, relationship, and life outside of work more so than men. Men generally go bowling on Wednesday night, ditch out of ballet rehersals to go to a poker game with his buddies, and will gladly miss familly reunions for a trip the Bunny Ranch... It's in their nature!

I am sorry you had to agree with me on something GePap

quote: I agree that there are still plenty of sexist ideas, just as there are racist ideas, but changing these is bound to be slow without radical action, the sort of radical action not friendly to democracy. To me, removing the more obvious forms of descrimination, and punishing outright descrimination is the way to go, and in that we have succeeded greatly.

I agree with though! Just look at Augusta golf thingy... Talk about a mans club... Radical action only caused them to clam up a little. Yet, now there is a woman who got onto the mens tour! and, what are they trying to do? Kick her off... I haven't seen a big stink raised by anyone like was raised by the chick for Augusta whinners... I don't know what to do about these situations, but to punish those who discriminate (of course Augusta is a private institution). Maybe not through radical demonstrations, but through political action. Maybe that would encourage more women to persue careers in politics instead of shaving their heads, driving a tow truck, and saying "men have it so easy". (How's that for a stereotype )

Address the solution... not the problem.

	30-05-2003 21:50									#81
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None o my previous ranting should be constrewn as support for the following:

quote: Among the report's recommendations is that an organization similar to Hate Watch be established to monitor men's groups on the Web, that inciting hatred on the basis of gender should be a hate crime and that women's groups establish a network to counter the masculinists' views.

I do think certain organizations bear watching, but not men's groups as a whole, and definately not by the government (except in the case of anti-abortion groups-as they have a tendency to spawn terrorists).

	30-05-2003 21:52									#82
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A couple of random thoughts:
A. Why do men want to have sex with twins anyway? Maybe other guys are different, but I only have one organ, and having to satisfy two women for no personal gain sounds like hell to me. With one woman and two men it might actually make sense, provided they were into weird orifices.
B. If your wife won't get you beer, switch to gin. It tastes just as foul but it gets you smashed much more quickly, so you only need the one drink you get from the fridge yourself. It's called innovative solutions. Tanq and tonic tastes better than any beer I've ever had, actually. Expand your horizons, you narrow-minded chauvinist blahblahblah...
C. Women may be less present in politics for more innocuous reasons, such as a lesser interest in screwing interns and secretaries, or less overbearing egotism. Certainly that's the only reason I can think of for entering a job that can't earn more than 200 grand a year, gets you *****ed at and criticized by the entire nation, costs you several million to get and that you may be fired from every couple years anyway for no good reason. What a pain in the rear.
D. No, even I don't know if I'm joking or not.

	30-05-2003 21:53									#83
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Anti-feminism really irritates me. Yes, some feminism is really whacky stuff, but we should condemn all of feminism for the ideas of a few only as much as we should condemn all Christians for the Branch Davidians, the Crusades, the Inquisistion, all Muslims for 9/11, all communists for Stalin, etc. McKinnon and Dworkin are minor giants, and have rather passed by by this generation of feminists. Today's feminism is concerned with the conditions of sex workers, with the fun of sex and pornography, with not taking sh*t from anyone for being a woman. Today's feminism is more playful, more sexual, and a damned site more egalitarian than 2nd wave feminism.

Well put.

	30-05-2003 21:55									#84
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quote: Do have emperical evidence of the contrary? No! It is impossible to take such a poll or make such an account. Yet, from what I've seen of women who do make it to positions of power they have made the same sacrifices as the men who have made it to that position. No family (or a really Sh!ty one), no home life, no realtionship (maybe a fling on the side), and no real life to speak of outside of work. From what I have seen of most women is that they want a family, home, relationship, and life outside of work more so than men. Men generally go bowling on Wednesday night, ditch out of ballet rehersals to go to a poker game with his buddies, and will gladly miss familly reunions for a trip the Bunny Ranch... It's in their nature!

This is precisely the same generalization and stereotyping that real feminism addresses. I'm glad your omniscient enough to know what most women want.

Women in unconventional fields like engineering and the sciences have been just as willing to make the same sacrifices but have been ignored/ passed over time and again. It still happens to this very day.

	30-05-2003 22:05									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi blackice did have certain areas of concern where perhaps the pendulum swung the other way. They are if I recall: 1) The family court/divorce court system is unfair to men. Men have the odds stacked against them here and most times the woman will end up with the children and get a disproportinate amount of the property

In Canada, the pendulum is moving back towards the centre.

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi 2) Men are too easily made the victim of false criminal complaints such as sexual harrasment, spousal abuse, and rape. While no doubt serous problems when they do happen, women have been able to use false allegations of these at men who they want to get at, and too often false complaints of these things are believed.

Not quite. When a woman makes a complaint, it is treated as any other complaint. The case goes to court and then is judged.

It's not any different than any other legal case. Let's say a shop owner says he was robbed and is shown a line up and picks out a suspect. That suspect might be completely innocent, but he will be charged and he'll end up in court. He might be found completely innocent. Does this mean the justice system is biased or faulty?

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi 3) Spousal abuse from the female partner directed against the male partner is ignored and trivialized by society. Many times the victim in this case cannot gain police intervention to help him. Furthermore, if a man's partner becomes violent against him, he is impeded from defending himself physically because then he will likely be facing spousal abuse charges where the femal partner will not.

Blackice is right about this.

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi 4. The educational system is biased against male students. It teaches more to girl's learning styles, and treats boys harshly for well, being boys. As a result, female performence in academia has far exceeded male performance.

That's just crazy.

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi 5. The movement known as political correctness has gone out of hand, limiting what men can do and say. An example of this would be a man who was forced to remove a picture of his wife in a swimsuit on his desk because it offended female colleauges. Men who violate this risk reprimand, sensitivity training, or even sexual harrasment charges.

Any links to prove that example is true. Sounds like an urban legend to me.

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi 6. Cultural concerns, probably not as important as the others. While we have seen a dramatic increase in the rights of women, responsibilites have not kept up with them. Men are still expected to pick up the check on dates, hold the door open, give up their seats for women, take care of physical labor for females, etc. So while many of the restrictions on female actions that accompanied the Victorian Era view of women have gone away, the responsibilites of men towards women have not.

Wrong because you're making massive generalisation. The women who expect men to open the door or give up their seats do not understand the concept of equality.

The idea that men take care of physical labour for females is absolutely ****ing hilarious. Do you really believe that women do no physical labour. Do you believe that women never clean the house, cook meals, etc.

Come on, that's just ridiculous.

	30-05-2003 22:24									#86
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Hey people this was not supposed to be a thread on the pros and cons of femenism. The point was the hate law thing and the right to publish your views on the internet without having them supressed by a bunch of lesbians

	30-05-2003 22:26									#87
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Really? Seemed more like "Aren't those feminazis horrible?" thread.

	30-05-2003 22:27									#88
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The problem with modern Feminist organizations like NOW is that the extremists have pushed out the moderates and they are claiming that their extremists, and yes bigoted, views is the real feminism.

	30-05-2003 22:31									#89
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Actually, the real problem with NOW is it is a bourgeois organization that is more conserned with abortion rights and getting women elected and breaking the glass ceiling than addressing the issues many women deal with day to day: such as child care, health care, work related issues, etc.

	30-05-2003 22:32									#90
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Has anyone ever considered that quite a few women really like to stay at home and raise kids rather than being a Fortune 500 executive or President?