30-05-2003 21:04									#1
	Improving the expansionist trait Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I have been thinking about ways to improve this trait. It is so limited - ok, you get scouts. Scouts can rock on a pangia map with lots of goodie huts. But what else do you get?

So I was thinking along two lines.

First, lets split the trait in two. England never had great scouts. They did however have a great sea exploration. So lets add another trait called Seafairing. Cheeper naval units, and cheeper harbors, etc. Get one extra sea movement point. Can build canoes/rafts at the start instead of scouts. They carry one unit, move 2 squares, and have a zero attack and defence. Also, they can be upgraded. You cannot start out the the canoe however (what if you start in a jungle?) so they should just be a little bit cheaper than scouts to make up for it.

This trait would be very usefull if in the next add on they add Great leaders for naval units also.

Second. For how it currently is, why not do two things. First, make some items cheaper to build. Graineries and factories are the two I would like. Better growth and production. Factories I am not sure about. Perhaps just focusing on food and population items. Graineries, aquaducts, etc. etc.

The scout is kinda useless after mapmaking. Sure, it is an ok pillaging unit. Sneak it in and cut off the enemies iron or something. But I like most other people usually just disband them or park them into some city and forget them. How about some sort of upgrade that makes sence. The explorer comes so late in teh game (except for the conquistador - those bad boys can do so much in the right circumstances) that they are worthless. Everybody has already map whored by that point and the only things that are not known are in the ocean. Thoughts, ideas, suggestions?

	30-05-2003 21:28									#2
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The seafaring trait is a good idea and most people have already said they would very much welcome it. I think expansion is rather useless in archipelage. In one game I made the galley available with pottery (I think), which is what the expansionist civs come with.

	30-05-2003 22:07									#3
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The galley comes with "Mapmaking", not Pottery.

	30-05-2003 22:17									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Azeem The galley comes with "Mapmaking", not Pottery.

Yes, I know. I made the change on the Mod, since I always play Archipelago. However, I then decided to change it back.

	31-05-2003 02:42									#5
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here's my view:

the most important thing about expansionist nations is they can have scouts and get goodie huts, or that is at least what many people think. Aren't the expansionist civs in real life either technologically inferior to other nations, or became expansionist later on, when there would be no goodie huts since all the land would have been explored/taken?

	31-05-2003 03:00									#6
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Scouts can rock on a pangia map with lots of goodie huts. But what else do you get?

A very good head start going into the Middle Ages. Quite often that's enough to keep you ahead of all the other civs for the rest of the game.

	31-05-2003 03:20									#7
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I like the extra sea movement idea but I'd really like to see reduced granary cost. I mean the no anarchy for rel is huge but it still gets reduced temple costs.

	31-05-2003 03:24									#8
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Reduced granary cost for expansionist is a good idea. For seafairing I would like to see reduced harbor cost, the canoe, and sea square movement from the arrival of galleys. Russia is a great expansionist example and England would be a great seafairing example

	31-05-2003 04:37									#9
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Reduced Granary costs for expansionists might be a little unbalancing... they're great as it is, and if you could build them in the early game for the cost of a settler, expansionist would become THE trait; almost as bad as Industrious seems to be THE trait now (though I guess there's at least some disagreement on that, as I've seen quite a lot of non-Industrious civs mentioned as favorites). Reduced cost of Aqueducts and/or Hospitals might be a better choice; while they're a greater shield savings, they come later on, especially Hospitals, and Aqueducts aren't going to be built in every city because of terrain, unhappiness, or if it's on a river.

Also, you could give Expansionists a second UU; a 2-move Settler is one idea I've seen, and I think it's a pretty good one, though I don't know if the AI could handle the decision of whether to escort it or use full speed.

	31-05-2003 04:48									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Also, you could give Expansionists a second UU; a 2-move Settler is one idea I've seen, and I think it's a pretty good one, though I don't know if the AI could handle the decision of whether to escort it or use full speed.

I've quite often seen the AI escort a Settler with a fast unit. However, I think that ability in itself would be to unbalancing. An Expansionist civ could spread half way across a continent in no time. Aside from adding an early sea unit, like an Outrigger for instace, with no cargo space; I think the trait is powerful enough as it is.

	31-05-2003 05:25									#11
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I like the early sea unit idea.

It would esentially be a sea scout. no A/D capabilities.

Also, make the scouts turn into outposts for players to use them as such once exploration is done.

	31-05-2003 05:38									#12
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quote: Originally posted by dexters It would esentially be a sea scout. no A/D capabilities.

I've done that in my mod, using a Canoe graphic I found, and it works out fine. It has the same movement rate as a Scout, no cargo capacity, and no A/D. So they're toast with the first Barbarian sea unit they come across. It's a bit more of an advantage for Expansionist civs, but not game breaking.

	31-05-2003 05:53									#13
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The expansionist trait is, IMHO, the most "variable value" of the possible traits - it can be phenomenal or almost completely wasted. On an archipelago, it doesn't often do a whole lot. On Pangaeas, it does a lot. On Pangaeas with lots of goody huts, it does wonders. Even absent a lot of goody huts though, it still enables early contact, which, when played well, can translate into a powerful early game of trading techs before their value devalues with widespread dispersion among civs. I don't think it needs strengthening any more than several of the other traits.

Catt

	31-05-2003 18:02									#14
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In my mod, map trading comes with navigation, and communication trading comes with radio.
Expansionist becomes really good with those two tweaks

I like the Seafaring attribute, and I think the Firaxians hoped to include it in PtW before noticing the huge amount of recoding that would mean (new traits, especially maritime, were on the wishlist)

	31-05-2003 18:17									#15
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hi ,

, ....

a settler with two move space , .....

yes and no , on a 300X300 map it might be good , but smaller , no , that could unbalance the game and civs with this option would rule the world before the year zero in the game , ......

as for the british , valid point , lets add one movement to the british UU and let it hold one unit or so , ....

maybe the expansionist trait should generate an extra culture point for each 5 or ten that are generated from each city for lets say the first 200 turns or so , .....

have a nice day

	31-05-2003 23:23									#16
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maybe a 2-move worker?

	31-05-2003 23:29									#17
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quote: Originally posted by pedrojedi maybe a 2-move worker?

hi ,

, its too strong , it could unbalance the game

have a nice day

	01-06-2003 05:04									#18
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a 1.25 move worker?

	01-06-2003 05:15									#19
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I personally prefer workers who have a special ability

"entertain"

Hit the button and they will dance for you.

	02-06-2003 17:20									#20
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How about make the scouts "convert" the villages they run into.... thus getting a city (and disbanding the scout)?

Kinda like a settler....

	02-06-2003 18:29									#21
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I remember a post back in history (an earlier version, of course, and pre-PtW) where someone reported a GL from a naval battle. It was American, I believe, and they may have posted a screenshot.

	02-06-2003 18:48									#22
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My only wish is that Scouts had one movement, treating all squares as roads

	02-06-2003 18:59									#23
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If only the Archives had search ability. I just spent the time since my last post manually looking for the thread. I gave up when I got back to Jan '02.

We could rename Expansionistic to Imperialistic and have leaders generated by Barb camps (eg Caesar emerged from fighting the Gauls, many Roman Emperors emerged from the Barbarian fighting ranks).

Of course for that you just need to go back and use patch v1.16f of Civ3.

	02-06-2003 20:09									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Reduced Granary costs for expansionists might be a little unbalancing... they're great as it is, and if you could build them in the early game for the cost of a settler, expansionist would become THE trait; almost as bad as Industrious seems to be THE trait now (though I guess there's at least some disagreement on that, as I've seen quite a lot of non-Industrious civs mentioned as favorites). Reduced cost of Aqueducts and/or Hospitals might be a better choice; while they're a greater shield savings, they come later on, especially Hospitals, and Aqueducts aren't going to be built in every city because of terrain, unhappiness, or if it's on a river. Also, you could give Expansionists a second UU; a 2-move Settler is one idea I've seen, and I think it's a pretty good one, though I don't know if the AI could handle the decision of whether to escort it or use full speed.

After thinking it over and looking at shield cost, I think you are probably correct on the grainary. The aqueduct shield reduction does seem like a better fit. With it coming early in the game it seems a better fit for expansionist than the Hospital.

A two move settler would make the expansionist able to dominate the game and would IMHO unbalance things.

	02-06-2003 21:51									#25
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I like the cheaper aqueduct thing (anyone else think Commercial civs should have cheaper Marketplaces?)

	02-06-2003 22:23									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Louis XXIV I like the cheaper aqueduct thing (anyone else think Commercial civs should have cheaper Marketplaces?)

I like this idea as well. It should be possible to key a reduced cost for a particular building to a civ trait. Don't they already do this with barracks and militaristic?

Also, what building for which trait do you think should have the reduction? If every Civ had a particular building would the game maintain its balance?

	02-06-2003 23:06									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Daz How about make the scouts "convert" the villages they run into.... thus getting a city (and disbanding the scout)? Kinda like a settler....

hi ,

it does happen , ......

seen it a couple times in the early days ( it got down with some patch ) when your city expanded the village became a new city , ....... often a size two or three , ...

have a nice day

	02-06-2003 23:07									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Louis XXIV I like the cheaper aqueduct thing (anyone else think Commercial civs should have cheaper Marketplaces?)

hi ,

, what a bout a new trait , "builders" or so , they would get reduction for most buildings , not wonders or certain key buildings later on , .....

have a nice day

	02-06-2003 23:13									#29
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I don't know if a new trait is needed. I would rather see more emphasis put on the ability of a particular civ to build a civ related building quicker.

The trait of "Builder" would seem to indicate that the civ had no cultural objective other than massive city sprawl. (Which, come to think of it might be pretty realistic after all )

	03-06-2003 01:23									#30
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 I don't know if a new trait is needed. I would rather see more emphasis put on the ability of a particular civ to build a civ related building quicker. The trait of "Builder" would seem to indicate that the civ had no cultural objective other than massive city sprawl. (Which, come to think of it might be pretty realistic after all )

hi ,

with 24 civs and eight more around the corner and lets hope an other 32 behind that , ....

well new traits might be welcome , at least two of them

have a nice day